Author Topic: What is Tznius?  (Read 6905 times)

Offline Happyguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2020, 12:08:29 AM »
yep thank you thats my q

Sorry when i started typing you hadnt posted yet - yeah dont ask me why it took 5 mins to write it

Offline lubaby

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2020, 12:17:57 AM »
Who gave Wikipedia Semicha? OP was asking where is the halachic basis for them to do it - not do ppl do it.
OP asked if there are universals standards. And mentioned Modern Orthodox being a possible factor in what he saw.

There are universal standards within ultra orthodox (universal- all women cover their hair. Religious sect specific- what type of covering) . Outside of that, there can be different rules (as with everything else in Judaism).

I don’t know where the modern orthodox tznius rules come from, and I don’t think that’s relevant to the conversation.. if it is indeed their rules, then it’s their rules.. (if you know (more then?) a few modern orthodox people, you’d know that the Wikipedia page is factual).

If the person in question considers themselves ultra orthodox, there can be room for some of OP’s questions.

And very important to remember, there are differences between Halacha, Minhagim and Hashkafa (/ personal preference?) in everything.

Offline Happyguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2020, 12:22:36 AM »
OP asked if there are universals standards. And mentioned Modern Orthodox being a possible factor in what he saw.

There are universal standards within ultra orthodox (universal- all women cover their hair. Religious sect specific- what type of covering) . Outside of that, there can be different rules (as with everything else in Judaism).

I don’t know where the modern orthodox tznius rules come from, and I don’t think that’s relevant to the conversation.. if it is indeed their rules, then it’s their rules.. (if you know (more then?) a few modern orthodox people, you’d know that the Wikipedia page is factual).

If the person in question considers themselves ultra orthodox, there can be room for some of OP’s questions.

And very important to remember, there are differences between Halacha, Minhagim and Hashkafa (/ personal preference?) in everything.

How I understand OP he was asking for Halachic basis - he wasn't trying to bash anyone. He knows the phenomenon exists so he wants to know which Rabbanim hold like that/ where are their sources. Quoting Wikipedia articles won't cut it. Sorry :-\ :-\

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2020, 12:32:28 AM »
OP asked if there are universals standards. And mentioned Modern Orthodox being a possible factor in what he saw.

There are universal standards within ultra orthodox (universal- all women cover their hair. Religious sect specific- what type of covering) . Outside of that, there can be different rules (as with everything else in Judaism).

I don’t know where the modern orthodox tznius rules come from, and I don’t think that’s relevant to the conversation.. if it is indeed their rules, then it’s their rules.. (if you know (more then?) a few modern orthodox people, you’d know that the Wikipedia page is factual).

If the person in question considers themselves ultra orthodox, there can be room for some of OP’s questions.

And very important to remember, there are differences between Halacha, Minhagim and Hashkafa (/ personal preference?) in everything.
if i wasnt clear in my original post then im sorry. but that is EXACTLY the purpose of this conversation.

I want to know where the standard of elbows and knees came from. Is it a "universal" rule or is this a "religious sect specific" rule, like @lubaby calls it. ?
Again, I want to know whats in the psyche of a modern orthodox person? I doubt the VAST majority of them have a solidly logical and halachic basis for it, so is it more just a culture thing?
putting it simply: if you suddenly stopped a young women on the street and asked point blank (in a very respectful manner so as not to get an adverse response) why shes dresses like she does, what would the response be? her response may be slightly representative to the rest.

How I understand OP he was asking for Halachic basis - he wasn't trying to bash anyone. He knows the phenomenon exists so he wants to know which Rabbanim hold like that/ where are their sources. Quoting Wikipedia articles won't cut it. Sorry :-\ :-\
and i thank my lawyer @Happyguy for taking my case pro bono  ;D
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Offline Happyguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2020, 12:37:44 AM »
and i thank my lawyer @Happyguy for taking my case pro bono  ;D

Sorry haven't managed to send you the bill yet. You should receive it in the next 5-7 business days ;D ;D

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2020, 09:22:24 AM »
3) I also understand that this is certainly not a new phenomenon ; in fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves. I wonder if the people then had the same goals and values as the modern orthodox community has today or did they just not know of a different lifestyle? I know my grandmother dressed like that then and she certainly wouldn’t be called modern nowadays , not at all.
In order to understand this "snapshot in history" we need some historical perspective. The grandmothers 50 years ago were parents approximately 70 years ago and "teenagers" a few years prior. That means, the vast majority of them did not attend the fledgling Bais Yaakov school established in 1941. The same goes for their husbands; although there were some Yeshivos, many could not afford to send there or did not see the importance of it.  They went to public school and if they were lucky, they had Talmud Torah in the afternoon (although many who did, did not consider themselves lucky). By the time they left school, they were essentially part of the American culture. Therefore, even the "Orthodox" struggled with the basics of Judaism.

Nonetheless, when it came time to send their own children to school, they were able to understand that a yeshiva or bais yaakov was necessary for the continuity of the Jewish People. These children came home from school with "new" ideas about yiddishkiet and halacha.  Although some parents were willing to listen and make changes, many could not accept that they were lacking in the observance of the torah they tried so hard to keep.

So the question remains, why didn't the rabbis protest the rampant violation of halacha in their droshos in shul? It would seem that the answer is that they felt they had to pick their battles. Tofasta meruba lo tofasta. So they initially chose to only discuss Shmiras Shabbos, Kashrus, and Taharas Hamishpacha in addition to marring Jewish.  Later, they began to address the more blatant violations of tznius such as mixed swimming. But as the masses were so part of the american culture, they did not think tznius with all it's exacting alachos was a winnable battle at the time.
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Offline ckmk47

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2020, 11:26:48 AM »
In the 1940's in NY it was standard to send boys to yeshiva.  Torah Vodaas was the usual one in Brooklyn.
By the mid 1940's some parents continued to send their daughters to talmud torah after public school and some parents sent them to the new Bais Yakov.
In Bais Yakov HS in 1954 a teacher, Rabbi I don't know who, would open the windows in winter to cause the girls to put on a sweater over their too short sleeves.
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Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2020, 11:54:59 AM »
In order to understand this "snapshot in history" we need some historical perspective. The grandmothers 50 years ago were parents approximately 70 years ago and "teenagers" a few years prior. That means, the vast majority of them did not attend the fledgling Bais Yaakov school established in 1941. The same goes for their husbands; although there were some Yeshivos, many could not afford to send there or did not see the importance of it.  They went to public school and if they were lucky, they had Talmud Torah in the afternoon (although many who did, did not consider themselves lucky). By the time they left school, they were essentially part of the American culture. Therefore, even the "Orthodox" struggled with the basics of Judaism.

Nonetheless, when it came time to send their own children to school, they were able to understand that a yeshiva or bais yaakov was necessary for the continuity of the Jewish People. These children came home from school with "new" ideas about yiddishkiet and halacha.  Although some parents were willing to listen and make changes, many could not accept that they were lacking in the observance of the torah they tried so hard to keep.

So the question remains, why didn't the rabbis protest the rampant violation of halacha in their droshos in shul? It would seem that the answer is that they felt they had to pick their battles. Tofasta meruba lo tofasta. So they initially chose to only discuss Shmiras Shabbos, Kashrus, and Taharas Hamishpacha in addition to marring Jewish.  Later, they began to address the more blatant violations of tznius such as mixed swimming. But as the masses were so part of the american culture, they did not think tznius with all it's exacting alachos was a winnable battle at the time.
thank you for this response this is a good analysis i havent thought about fully.

so how do you address the modern day tznius topic? is it also a tafasta meruba lo tafasta thing the modern rabbanim arent addressing it bc they're working on other things? I think its a little different nowadays where we all go to jewish schools as opposed to then. so technically theres more insulation but clearly not enough
also, im obviously giving credit to the fact that the standards in the modern community have been made for tznius, but the classic question of if your standing too close to the fence you might go over it comes up. and its not just if anymore. for many, its clearly not a problem anymore.

But I feel like in a way, you're right and this tznius topic has still not been fully addressed by the whole community since the 40's. Bais Yaakov helped a good portion, YU created an oasis for those looking to live in the middle, but maybe it didnt go far enough to fully instill the idea of tznius.
just my ramblings but would still like to hear more  :)
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Offline ckmk47

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2020, 12:09:39 PM »
One attitude of tznius is "What's appropriate for a bas yisroel?"
Taking a cue from Princess Kate and other earthly royalty.  She doesn't reveal too much skin, shape or crudeness.
A bas yisroel is a princess and should strive to dress and act accordingly.
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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2020, 12:14:29 PM »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline flyingace

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2020, 12:20:55 PM »
I have heard the argument (not from Rabbanim) that based on Minhag hamakom, pants and not covering hair are the way women dress now so it's not a problem.

Offline pbf

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2020, 12:23:45 PM »
As a (chareidi) female, I am following.
I've never been able to find exact halachos of tznius and it bothers me that people treat minhag as halacha, specifically in regard to tznius.

Offline chinagel

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2020, 12:41:53 PM »
I have heard the argument (not from Rabbanim) that based on Minhag hamakom, pants and not covering hair are the way women dress now so it's not a problem.
Not covering hair is deoiraisa. Kinda hard to argue that.
As a (chareidi) female, I am following.
I've never been able to find exact halachos of tznius
There is a reason for that. Except in regard to halachos of ervah (davening/brachos/learning) it's a midah (that doesn't mean you don't have to follow, just that it's not gonna be set rules).

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2020, 12:51:53 PM »
I have heard the argument (not from Rabbanim) that based on Minhag hamakom, pants and not covering hair are the way women dress now so it's not a problem.
yes im glad someone brought up minhag hamakom i just heard about it last night my friend explaining it to me. but he said it refers to the minhag hamakom of the jewish women not of the world. imagine if we dressed like the minhag of the world... :o :o. I dont mean to be graphic but theres literally clothes that are meant to be see through. can you imagine seeing jewish people wearing that one day shopping in your neighborhood. its just a slow slipperly slope.
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Offline flyingace

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2020, 01:07:41 PM »
yes im glad someone brought up minhag hamakom i just heard about it last night my friend explaining it to me. but he said it refers to the minhag hamakom of the jewish women not of the world. imagine if we dressed like the minhag of the world... :o :o. I dont mean to be graphic but theres literally clothes that are meant to be see through. can you imagine seeing jewish people wearing that one day shopping in your neighborhood. its just a slow slipperly slope.
It is being used in a way that is not halachically valid. You asked for some rationale... Actually, I believe it is determined by how the Chashuv women in the area dress.

Offline Dan

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2020, 01:31:44 PM »
It is being used in a way that is not halachically valid. You asked for some rationale... Actually, I believe it is determined by how the Chashuv women in the area dress.
Even important women wear sleeveless gowns and pants these days.
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Offline chinagel

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2020, 01:42:35 PM »
Even important women wear sleeveless gowns and pants these days.
He was referencing
but he said it refers to the minhag hamakom of the jewish women not of the world.
I believe

Offline yelped

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2020, 02:31:39 PM »
He was referencingI believe
That doesn't address his point, though.

 I would venture to say, not basing this on anything I heard, but just what makes sense to me, that technically as far as tznius we do go like minhag hamakom, but we have another problem that if we dress like minhag hamakom, the clothing worn today is Megareh Yetzer Horah, and would be prohibited based on that.

Just my 2 (worthless?) cents. Any comments?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 02:35:43 PM by yelped »

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2020, 02:39:54 PM »
That doesn't address his point, though.

 I would venture to say, not basing this on anything I heard, but just what makes sense to me, that technically as far as tznius we do go like minhag hamakom, but we have another problem that if we dress like minhag hamakom, the clothing worn today is Megareh Yetzer Horah, and would be prohibited based on that.

Just my 2 (worthless?) cents. Any comments?
but the way you’re saying it sounds like tznius is just a backup rule to the situation today. I don’t think tznius is built as a backup plan. It’s a default rule. I therefore am not sure where minhag hamakom comes in..
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Offline chinagel

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2020, 02:47:41 PM »
That doesn't address his point, though.

 I would venture to say, not basing this on anything I heard, but just what makes sense to me, that technically as far as tznius we do go like minhag hamakom, but we have another problem that if we dress like minhag hamakom, the clothing worn today is Megareh Yetzer Horah, and would be prohibited based on that.

Just my 2 (worthless?) cents. Any comments?
I believe there are 3 issues.
1. ervah for brachos etc.. this has clearly defined rules.
2. midah. this is very hard to have clearly defined rules what's mutar. certain things to assur are clearly defined.
3. lifnei iveir for men. similar to 2.

The only relevance minhag hamakom would have would be to assur s/t that would otherwise be muttar in 2 & 3 (or if it was only assur b/c of minhag hamakom originally then it can be matir). To be matir s/t that's clearly assur would not be helped by minhag hamakom.
The obvious question is what makes s/t minhag hamakom. But it would def. only be because of yidden.