Author Topic: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)  (Read 152843 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1640 on: January 02, 2024, 02:14:35 PM »
Who is The First R' Yesahyeh that he's quoting?
The תוס' רי"ד

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1641 on: February 06, 2024, 07:28:20 AM »
Rav Avigdor Miller on Getting Out of Debt
Q:

How does one cope with the stress of having chovos, debts?

A:

Number one, is that you have to have a job. It’s very important to learn a parnassah. There are so many ways of making a living. America is the land of opportunity. You will only have a problem if you think you’re a choshuve person and that it’s beneath your dignity to work. You want to act like a talmid chochom and live on charity and live in debt! You should know, Hakodosh Boruch Hu is not satisfied with you. טוב תורה עם דרך ארץ – You have to work and make a living, together with learning, כי יגיעת שניהם משכחת עוון – because that will keep you far away from sin (Avos 2:2). And if you work, you’ll pay off your debts. But if you don’t work, your debts will increase and multiply. It’s a very important principle in life to not live a life of idleness. So you’ll tell me, “I’m learning all day long. I have bitachon.” No, no. That’s not bitachon. It’s just wildness. Just wildness. It’s just yielding to the yetzer hora.

And therefore, it’s so important for people to learn a parnassah. Now, you might say, “That’s a contradiction to our function in life. We should sit and learn all day long, all our lives.” No! You’re contradicting the Torah. It says הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון בר יוחאי ולא עלתה בידם. Many people didn’t succeed in following the path of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, the path of dedicating their lives completely to limud hatorah at the expense of a parnassah (Brachos 35b). It’s not for many people. It’s for a mi’ut – a small minority. The majority of people cannot do that.

And therefore, it’s necessary for people to be honest with themselves and go out and make a living. The best way to deal with debt is by not getting into debt in the first place.

TAPE # E-173 (January 7, 1999)

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1642 on: February 21, 2024, 11:57:23 AM »
+1 especially when it's a longer and painfuler process than a bullet.
This made me think that it should be the opposite. I thought I remembered az yashir that some mitzriyim sunk like אבן. I thought it was the reshaim but it's the opposite. I forgot. So it seems like you're right.

That leaves me with the question why is it that way. By yidden you get a kappara from tzar. So why dont the not so bad goyim get that benefit?

Something is different. I don't know what. Maybe misa is the only kappara for goyim so suffering is an added punishment. But that leaves a different question why is there suffering by non Jewish children that didn't have time to do any aveiros.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1643 on: February 21, 2024, 09:33:23 PM »
This made me think that it should be the opposite. I thought I remembered az yashir that some mitzriyim sunk like אבן. I thought it was the reshaim but it's the opposite. I forgot. So it seems like you're right.

That leaves me with the question why is it that way. By yidden you get a kappara from tzar. So why dont the not so bad goyim get that benefit?
Let's take a step back first.

How do you understand why suffering in this world can absolve of sin? Surely in the world to come any punishment would be of larger magnitude. 

Evidently it is a grace of God, a privilege He allots, to be able to utilize suffering in this world to clean the slate for the next. Not everyone is entitled to such a privilege necessarily.

See this maharsha once we’re at it. ענינא דיומא :)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1644 on: February 21, 2024, 09:43:54 PM »
But that leaves a different question why is there suffering by non Jewish children that didn't have time to do any aveiros.
Why are you limiting this question to Non Jews?

Anyway, it’s the age old question of why do the righteous suffer. There are different approaches, personally I prefer this one:
Some things there are no answers for in this world.

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1645 on: February 22, 2024, 12:38:33 AM »
Let's take a step back first.

How do you understand why suffering in this world can absolve of sin? Surely in the world to come any punishment would be of larger magnitude. 

Evidently it is a grace of God, a privilege He allots, to be able to utilize suffering in this world to clean the slate for the next. Not everyone is entitled to such a privilege necessarily.

See this maharsha once we’re at it. ענינא דיומא :)
I think you're on to something but I can't put my finger on it.
I'll try to recreate and elaborate on my previous thought process. Tell me where I'm going off. I think my part 2 is a bit wonky and the misa part is unnecessary and possibly illogical. Which would end up to be exactly what you are saying (I think)

1 - I started off assuming that this privilege was for everyone because I understood the process the way it works as a "physical" connection between this world and the other. Meaning everything below has its mirror above. So this suffering is the mirror image of the suffering above. So I said to myself that it shouldn't make a difference between a goy or a yid. So I was wondering then the order should be the opposite.

2 - Then I thought ok so let's change it that even if it's a mirror image it wouldn't help because only misa is mechaper. And the reshaim got it worse because they were worse. Then I went on to the question that if so there shouldn't be any suffering by goyim. I think I added the part of being young because I wanted to avoid some complications (I don't remember my thought process of what exactly that could be (maybe something along the lines of rachamim or zechusim)).

(There's also the part of where exactly goyim fit into the big picture. I don't think I ever looked into that much at all. But it's definitely a prerequisite to the above and is part of my confusion. I was assuming that they have the 7 mitzvos and overall it's pretty much the same as by yidden. If they follow they end up in some part of gan Eden and olam haba but maybe with less something. If they don't follow then they end up in gehenim in order to be able to go someplace else.
That I'm very not clear at all in.)

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1646 on: February 22, 2024, 01:57:05 AM »
Why are you limiting this question to Non Jews?

Anyway, it’s the age old question of why do the righteous suffer. There are different approaches, personally I prefer this one:
It was just because of the context.
I'm only aware of 2 answers. Either gilgulim or not knowing. Are there other opinions?

Me personally I'm 50/50 between not knowing and a different view. I definitely used to lean towards not knowing.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1647 on: February 22, 2024, 09:54:12 AM »
I think you're on to something but I can't put my finger on it.
I'll try to recreate and elaborate on my previous thought process. Tell me where I'm going off. I think my part 2 is a bit wonky and the misa part is unnecessary and possibly illogical. Which would end up to be exactly what you are saying (I think)

1 - I started off assuming that this privilege was for everyone because I understood the process the way it works as a "physical" connection between this world and the other. Meaning everything below has its mirror above. So this suffering is the mirror image of the suffering above. So I said to myself that it shouldn't make a difference between a goy or a yid. So I was wondering then the order should be the opposite.

2 - Then I thought ok so let's change it that even if it's a mirror image it wouldn't help because only misa is mechaper. And the reshaim got it worse because they were worse. Then I went on to the question that if so there shouldn't be any suffering by goyim.
Evil doers can suffer in this world without the benefit of kapara.
אין שלום לרשעים אמר ד׳

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1648 on: February 22, 2024, 11:10:52 AM »
Evil doers can suffer in this world without the benefit of kapara.
אין שלום לרשעים אמר ד׳
Where's that from (I still can't figure out how to select Hebrew letters properly on my phone. It jumps around)?

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1649 on: February 22, 2024, 12:49:19 PM »
This made me think that it should be the opposite. I thought I remembered az yashir that some mitzriyim sunk like אבן. I thought it was the reshaim but it's the opposite. I forgot. So it seems like you're right.

That leaves me with the question why is it that way. By yidden you get a kappara from tzar. So why dont the not so bad goyim get that benefit?

Something is different. I don't know what. Maybe misa is the only kappara for goyim so suffering is an added punishment. But that leaves a different question why is there suffering by non Jewish children that didn't have time to do any aveiros.
There seem to be many aspects to suffering.
Brachos 5a&b discusses an idea that hashem gives yesurin so we should be מפשפש במעשם, so standard yesurin come so you should realize something needs to be done similar to nerves feeling pain which tell your body that something is wrong, but if you have nothing to fix then it's a sign that these yesurin are of another category that some righteous people whom don't have any sin receive, just to increase their reward in the next world. This suffering is literally for the sake of suffering, and so if the person is מקבל באהבה, it'll be worthwhile, and if not then there's no point which is why in the Gemara they tell each other חביבין עליך יסורין? and when he answers no, he gives him his hand and heals him, cuz if one isn't being mekabel the yesurin shel ahava then there's no point too it.

However in Avoda Zara 4a the Gemara seems to discuss another aspect to yesurin, that hashem gives ONLY Jews, in order to minimize their punishment in olam haba, רשי says ד"ה נפרע ממנו מעט   מעט, כן ישראל נפרע מהן הקב"ה את כל עוונותיהן בעו"הז כדי שיזכו ליום הדין ועכו"ם אינו נפרע מהן כלל כדי לטרדן מן העוה"ב

So being that nobody denies that non Jews have suffering as well, clearly we are discussing a special additional suffering that hashems giving Jews on top of what regular ppl would be getting just in order to deduct from sins, but even without this special deduction we would still be prone to regular suffering that the whole world has which goes under the classic שכר ועונש, and הנהגת היחוד which goyim fall under as well.

So to recap I think there's 4 categories.

A) Yesurim that tell you you're doing something wrong and if you get the message they go away.(Not sure if this is exclusive to Jews or not)

B) Yesurim Shel Ahava: Come with No sin just for the sake of giving Special Tzadikim extra reward for accepting the pain. (Only tzadikim)

C) Yesurim to deduct a person's aveiros so he gets less Gehenom. (Only Jews)

D) Yesurim that everyone is susceptible too as part of the way the world works and part of שכר ועונש/הנהגת המשפט  and הנהגת הייחוד (where hashem is orchestrating everything to bring about the ultimate תיקון, of וכל הרשעה כולה כעשן תכלה)
which we don't have an understanding of as @imayid2  mentioned already.

P. S. As far as what you mentioned in regards to מצריים, receiving diff levels of punishment, which at first glance seems to contradict Category C, perhaps this isnt bgeder yesurin, as this is already the actual עונש, and based on how wicked they were, their death was accordingly painful, but both of them received the full punishment afterwards in the next world.
Throughout נביאים, hashem constantly warns the nations about their impending downfall and diff painfall punishments they will get in this world מידה כנגד מידה, but that's always when hashem is taking his revenge and they are receiving their onesh already.
But in regards to everyday suffering in Africa etc, that would be Category D.