Author Topic: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections  (Read 33454 times)

Offline whYME

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2020, 03:28:17 PM »
At least be honest that both sides do it.
It's almost like there's a difference between believing that's what your job is vs believing you shouldn't do it but maybe not getting the ruling right every time, maybe even because your judgement is affected by your preconceived notions/beliefs...

Offline gubevo18

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2020, 04:18:56 PM »
And Citizens United wasn't a stretch? Bush v Gore wasn't a stretch?
Citizens United? not at all! its free speech. Why is it any different than say Bezos owning the WaPo. We should police that as well, no? Im happy with free speech even though I may not like it. BUt nowhere in the constitution does it say that free speech has a cap based on how much money you have to spend.

As far as Bush v Gore - I don't know enough, but again I agree both sides do it. At least I can see things somewhat objectively. It doesn't seem you are able to.

Offline gubevo18

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #222 on: September 24, 2020, 04:24:06 PM »
I think the idea that liberal justices legislate from the bench and conservative ones don't is completely reductionist.
Scrolling back now - this is pretty dumb tbh.

Most liberals I know would acknowledge that liberals tend to legislate from the bench more, but they are happy with that since they believe judges should take into account social policy etc. (perhaps a defensible position, albeit one I vehemently disagree with) but conservative judges in the modern era definitely tend to be more bound by the rules.

It might come from their view of what the law should be in the sense that we need a set of stable laws in order to function, and you might disagree with that, but that is definitely not "legislating from the bench."

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #223 on: September 24, 2020, 04:30:51 PM »
Citizens United? not at all! its free speech. Why is it any different than say Bezos owning the WaPo. We should police that as well, no? Im happy with free speech even though I may not like it. BUt nowhere in the constitution does it say that free speech has a cap based on how much money you have to spend.

As far as Bush v Gore - I don't know enough, but again I agree both sides do it. At least I can see things somewhat objectively. It doesn't seem you are able to.
There are plenty of other legal campaign finance laws that have been upheld time and time again.

No 1st amendment rights are absolute, that has likewise been upheld time and time again.

Congress passed a law regulating elections, as is clearly in their purview. I don't think it's correct to say that this isn't a case of legistlating from the bench.

Re Bush v. Gore, the option they could have taken was allow the FL state Supreme Court to decide the single standard to use for the state, rather than halt a recount, which essentially usurped state power. They didn't do that. Make of that what you will.

Offline gubevo18

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #224 on: September 24, 2020, 04:33:09 PM »
There are plenty of other legal campaign finance laws that have been upheld time and time again.

No 1st amendment rights are absolute, that has likewise been upheld time and time again.

Congress passed a law regulating elections, as is clearly in their purview. I don't think it's correct to say that this isn't a case of legistlating from the bench.

Re Bush v. Gore, the option they could have taken was allow the FL state Supreme Court to decide the single standard to use for the state, rather than halt a recount, which essentially usurped state power. They didn't do that. Make of that what you will.
Aha, so no legal response from you regarding the citizens united issue, just that "it's been done before." Still not legislating form the bench. It's okay to acknowledge that your world view might effect your line of thinking. It happens to the best of us.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2020, 04:36:25 PM »
Aha, so no legal response from you regarding the citizens united issue, just that "it's been done before." Still not legislating form the bench. It's okay to acknowledge that your world view might effect your line of thinking. It happens to the best of us.
My point is that it's most likely an overcorrection to say that political spending is protected free speech, given that in many other areas it is not.

My theory based off that is that the court legislated a new form of campaign finance laws.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2020, 04:36:59 PM »
And precedent very much matters, so saying "it's been done before" is a perfectly valid point.

Online aygart

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2020, 04:40:03 PM »
There are plenty of other legal campaign finance laws that have been upheld time and time again.

No 1st amendment rights are absolute, that has likewise been upheld time and time again.

Congress passed a law regulating elections, as is clearly in their purview. I don't think it's correct to say that this isn't a case of legistlating from the bench.

Re Bush v. Gore, the option they could have taken was allow the FL state Supreme Court to decide the single standard to use for the state, rather than halt a recount, which essentially usurped state power. They didn't do that. Make of that what you will.
Barring regulation of peaceful political speech is just about absolute. This is not regulating elections but regulating speech about elections. Those are 2 very different things. Bundling them together is not intellectually honest. That it has or hasn't been upheld is not really relevant to whether or not it is legislating from the bench. Neither is whether or not the ruling is correct. It can be a very bad ruling and still not be legislating from the bench. Based purely on the reasoning of the majority, this was a very clear constitutional violation. You can disagree with them, but that is definitely within the most conservative view of judicial review.

You can disagree with the ruling but that does not constitute legilating from the bench.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #228 on: September 24, 2020, 04:40:39 PM »
My point is that it's most likely an overcorrection to say that political spending is protected free speech, given that in many other areas it is not.

My theory based off that is that the court legislated a new form of campaign finance laws.

What new law did they legislate?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #229 on: September 24, 2020, 04:41:25 PM »
And precedent very much matters, so saying "it's been done before" is a perfectly valid point.
It may be a valid point regarding the ruling but has nothing to do with whether it is legislating.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #230 on: September 24, 2020, 04:42:28 PM »
What new law did they legislate?
What new law did Roe v Wade legislate? They reviewed the law and made a determination of a right to privacy. And this is held up as THE standard for legislating from the bench.


The answer in both cases is that judges expanded a right beyond its original intent.

Offline gubevo18

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #231 on: September 24, 2020, 04:43:47 PM »
And precedent very much matters, so saying "it's been done before" is a perfectly valid point.
lol I'm not sure if you really believe the argument you are making or your just being disingenuous. Precedent matters only if SCOTUS actually rules on the case previously. And even then... it isn't fool proof. And specifically with free speech jurisprudence, SCOTUS has been very hesitant to issue any limitations; in fact, free speech has better protections than religious liberty. So specifically in this area, saying Congress did it before (not sure they have but you claim they did) would not be enough.
And especially to go and call it legislating from the bench because of that. Sorry but that's just ridiculous.

Offline gubevo18

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #232 on: September 24, 2020, 04:44:58 PM »
What new law did Roe v Wade legislate? They reviewed the law and made a determination of a right to privacy. And this is held up as THE standard for legislating from the bench.


The answer in both cases is that judges expanded a right beyond its original intent.
They created a right that didn't exist previously, for one.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #233 on: September 24, 2020, 04:48:37 PM »
In the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, as amended in 1974, Congress imposed new and stringent regulation of and limitations on contributions to and expenditures by political campaigns, as well as disclosure of most contributions and expenditures, setting the stage for the landmark case of Buckley v. Valeo.10 Acting in basic unanimity, the Court sustained the contribution and disclosure sections of the statute (although several Justices felt that the sustained provisions trenched on protected expression), but voided the limitations on expenditures.11 Although contribution and expenditure limitations both implicate fundamental First Amendment interests, the Court found, expenditure ceilings impose significantly more severe restrictions on protected freedoms of political expression and association than do . . . limitations on financial contributions.12
As to contribution limitations, the Court in Buckley recognized that political contributions serve[ ] to affiliate a person with a candidate and enable[ ] like-minded persons to pool their resources in furtherance of common political goals. Contribution ceilings, therefore, limit one important means of associating with a candidate or committee. . . .13 Yet [e]ven a significant interference with protected rights of political association may be sustained if the State demonstrates a sufficiently important interest and employs means closely drawn to avoid unnecessary abridgment of associational freedoms.14
As to expenditure limitations, the Court wrote, [a] restriction on the amount of money a person or group can spend on political communication during a campaign necessarily reduces the quantity of expression by restricting the number of issues discussed, the depth of their exploration, and the size of the audience reached.15 The expenditure of money in political campaigns may involve speech alone, conduct alone, or mixed speech-conduct, the Court noted, but all forms of it involve communication, and when governmental regulation is aimed directly at suppressing communication it does not matter how that communication is defined. As such, the regulation must be subjected to close scrutiny and justified by compelling governmental interests.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #234 on: September 24, 2020, 04:59:52 PM »

Re Bush v. Gore, the option they could have taken was allow the FL state Supreme Court to decide the single standard to use for the state, rather than halt a recount, which essentially usurped state power. They didn't do that. Make of that what you will.
So nice of you to ignore my points that I made above.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #235 on: September 24, 2020, 05:02:48 PM »
So nice of you to ignore my points that I made above.
No other choice doesn't make it not legistlating. They essentially decided what Florida election law should be because they invalidated the law they had on the books.

That would be like saying SCOTUS should make up a new ACA because they don't want to get rid of people's heath insurance during a pandemic.

You can't play both sides.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #236 on: September 24, 2020, 05:08:45 PM »
No other choice doesn't make it not legistlating. They essentially decided what Florida election law should be because they invalidated the law they had on the books.

That would be like saying SCOTUS should make up a new ACA because they don't want to get rid of people's heath insurance during a pandemic.

You can't play both sides.
Wrong wrong wrong
There was a violation of the equal protection act, the only way to remedy that would’ve violated the safe harbor period which is a federal law. You’re really good at ignoring the facts which don’t fit your narrative

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #237 on: September 24, 2020, 05:15:51 PM »
Wrong wrong wrong
There was a violation of the equal protection act, the only way to remedy that would’ve violated the safe harbor period which is a federal law. You’re really good at ignoring the facts which don’t fit your narrative
We're not disagreeing that SCOUTS had to essentially decide the best course of action. I am saying is that doesn't first into a strict purview of limited judicial review, and fits much better as the court deciding the best law given a complex set of circumstances.

Online aygart

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #238 on: September 24, 2020, 05:17:35 PM »
We're not disagreeing that SCOUTS had to essentially decide the best course of action. I am saying is that doesn't first into a strict purview of limited judicial review, and fits much better as the court deciding the best law given a complex set of circumstances.
That does not make it legislating from the bench. The courts had a role prior to Marbury v Madison as well.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Afrages6

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Re: RBG DDF shortlist and how it will shape the Elections
« Reply #239 on: September 24, 2020, 05:35:46 PM »
We're not disagreeing that SCOUTS had to essentially decide the best course of action. I am saying is that doesn't first into a strict purview of limited judicial review, and fits much better as the court deciding the best law given a complex set of circumstances.
You mean they applied a federal law to a federal election?