Author Topic: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi  (Read 14866 times)

Offline Ergel

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #120 on: October 01, 2020, 04:17:47 PM »
Would you say a drunk driver is a rodef? That is, there are many people who drive drunk and are completely fine, and others who kill people, but killing people is rare.
Let's start there. @avromie7 Do you think it's fair to call a drunk driver a rodef? Or are you not qualified to answer?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #121 on: October 01, 2020, 04:22:45 PM »
Would you say a drunk driver is a rodef? That is, there are many people who drive drunk and are completely fine, and others who kill people, but killing people is rare.
I would compare drunk driving to an infected person going into a nursing home. Chances are he won't infects/crashes into someone, but if he does there is a decent chance someone dies.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #122 on: October 01, 2020, 04:41:42 PM »
Let's start there. @avromie7 Do you think it's fair to call a drunk driver a rodef? Or are you not qualified to answer?

I think going into a nursing home knowingly with infection is a lot more dangerous than drunk driving. The only question is if the COVID carrier is currently contagious. If he is, and he's walking around talking to multiple people, it's almost certain he will infect others who will pass it around the nursing home. The outcome would likely include multiple hospitalizations and deaths.
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Online avromie7

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2020, 04:47:04 PM »
I think going into a nursing home knowingly with infection is a lot more dangerous than drunk driving. The only question is if the COVID carrier is currently contagious. If he is, and he's walking around talking to multiple people, it's almost certain he will infect others who will pass it around the nursing home. The outcome would likely include multiple hospitalizations and deaths.
This is why I would compare going into a nursing home to drunk driving. I would think someone who knows he is contagious going into a nursing home is a rodef.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2020, 04:48:41 PM »
This is why I would compare going into a nursing home to drunk driving. I would think someone who knows he is contagious going into a nursing home is a rodef.
What about a shul that people in the 60s regularly attend?

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2020, 04:50:29 PM »
What about a shul that people in the 60s regularly attend?
It's a bad idea, but a shul with people in their 60s is not the same as a nursing home.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 05:23:52 PM by avromie7 »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2020, 05:00:32 PM »
This thread is awesome. Guess this bein hazmanim we're learning the sugya of rodef.

Offline ari3

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #127 on: October 01, 2020, 05:02:09 PM »
This thread is awesome. Guess this bein hazmanim we're learning the sugya of rodef.
and ב"ה we have all the תלמידי חכמים of DDF to help us out, especially with the הלכה למעשה

Offline Euclid

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #128 on: October 01, 2020, 05:04:08 PM »
and ב"ה we have all the תלמידי חכמים of DDF to help us out, especially with the הלכה למעשה
Watch who you call a rabbi around here. ;)

(Yes I'm guilty of that too.)

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #129 on: October 01, 2020, 05:10:14 PM »
It's not a smart idea, but a shul with people in their 60s is not the same as a nursing home.
So if I'm understanding - it's fine to go places that might have older or immuno-compromised people, but you draw the line at places that definitely have them?

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #130 on: October 01, 2020, 05:12:08 PM »
So if I'm understanding - it's fine to go places that might have older or immuno-compromised people, but you draw the line at places that definitely have them?
Where did you get the impression I believe fine for an infected person to go places that might have older or immuno-compromised people?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #131 on: October 01, 2020, 05:13:10 PM »
Where did you get the impression I believe fine for an infected person to go places that might have older or immuno-compromised people?
You said they can go to shul even though there are people in their 60s there (and possibly older)...

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #132 on: October 01, 2020, 05:16:11 PM »
You said they can go to shul even though there are people in their 60s there (and possibly older)...
No I didn't say that, I literally said the exact opposite. I said it's NOT a smart idea, but it's not the same as going into a nursing home.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #133 on: October 01, 2020, 05:19:07 PM »
No I didn't say that, I literally said the exact opposite. I said it's NOT a smart idea, but it's not the same as going into a nursing home.
Not a smart idea isn't the same as saying it's wrong... Can you clarify your position here?

Offline good sam

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #134 on: October 01, 2020, 05:23:07 PM »
No I didn't say that, I literally said the exact opposite. I said it's NOT a smart idea, but it's not the same as going into a nursing home.
What do you think constitutes a safek sakana? 1/10? 1/100?
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #135 on: October 01, 2020, 05:24:16 PM »
It's a bad idea, but a shul with people in their 60s is not the same as a nursing home.
Not a smart idea isn't the same as saying it's wrong... Can you clarify your position here?
Better now?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #136 on: October 01, 2020, 05:24:44 PM »
What do you think constitutes a safek sakana? 1/10? 1/100?
Is safek sakana a rodef?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline good sam

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #137 on: October 01, 2020, 05:40:09 PM »
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline Happyguy

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #138 on: October 01, 2020, 05:40:45 PM »
What about a shul that people in the 60s regularly attend?

I saw thus Teshuva about כל המשנה ובא אחר ושינה בו in regard to dangerous drivers and ppl not looking when they cross the road. According to this we would say כל המשנה ובא אחר ושינה בו as in כל המשנה the 60+ yr old going to shul ובא אחר ושינה ב - the second person going into the shul possibly infecting them and would be patur. I suppose we would only say כל המשנה if the 60+ yr old isn't wearing mask, not keeping to social distancing.

התוספות על הסוגיה הנ"ל מקשים ממקור אחר בגמ' המביא כלל בדיני נזיקין, לפיו כל מי שמתנהל בצורה משונה ובא אדם אחר והתנהל גם הוא
בצורה משונה, וכתוצאה מכך נגרם נזק לאדם הראשון, פטור השני מתשלום נזקיו, משום שגם הראשון שינה. התוספות שואלים , מדוע הגמ'
מקשה על דברי המשנה שהנתקל בכד פטור שהרי היה לו להביט בדרכים, לכאורה כיוון שהאדם הניח את הכד במקום שאינו מוגדר לכך, גם אם
היה על האדם להביט בדרכים, כיוון שהראשון עשה מעשה משונה, אע"פ שגם השני התנהג בצורה רשלנית, פטור השני מחובת תשלום הנזיקין,
ע"פ הכלל: "כל המשנה ובא אחר ושינה בו פטור". בתירוצם לקושיה זו מחדשים התוספות חידוש ביסוד זה, ואומרים שכלל זה אינו שייך בנזקי
אדם . הים של שלמה מסביר את דבריהם, שכיוון שלאדם בניגוד לבהמה ישנה דעת, ויכול הוא להישמר מלהזיק לאחרים, גם אם האדם לו הזיק
עשה גם כן מעשה משונה, מכיוון שהשינוי של השני הינו משמעותי יותר מהשינוי של הראשון, ממילא אין לפטור את השני מתשלום נזקים
לראשון. מדבריו של הים של שלמה עולה, כי לא בכל מצב יאמרו התוספות שאכן לא שייך באדם דין כל המשנה ובא אחר ושינה בו חייב, אלא
רק כאשר האדם הראשון הניח חפץ מסוים, או בע"ח מסוים, אשר אין לו דעת, ובזמן הנזק לא יכולים היו החפץ ובעל החיים להישמר מהנזק.
באופן זה, נחשב הדבר שהאדם השני עושה שינוי גדול יותר מאשר האדם הראשון שהניח את החפץ ובעל החיים, וממילא יתחייב. אולם, כאשר
מדובר בתאונה שמעורבים בה שני אנשים, אשר שניהם ברי דעת, ושניהם מתנהלים באופן חריג ומשונה, שייך לומר כלל זה גם באדם. ורק אם
מוכח בצורה ברורה, שהאדם השני שינה בצורה מהותית יותר מאשר האדם הראשון, ניתן יהיה לחייב את השני בתשלומי הנזק אותו הוא גרם.
נמצאנו למדים מדבריהם, שמעבר לכך שבני אדם לא צריכים להביט בדרכים חוץ מחובת ההסתכלות הנורמלית, הנדרשת מכל נהג ע"מ
לשמור על חייו, ומכח כלל זה שנפסק להלכה לא ניתן לחייב אדם אשר נסע כחוק והזיק לחפץ מסוים ע"ג הכביש. כאשר מדובר
בהתנגשות בין כלי רכב בהם נוהגים אנשים ברי דעת, ואחד מהם הזיק לחברו כשהניזק נסע שלא כחוק, לא יכול הניזק לדרוש פיצויים
מהמזיק בטענה שגם הוא נסע שלא כחוק, ע"פ הכלל שכל המשנה ובא אחר ושינה בו פטור, אלא אם התנהלותו של השני הייתה הרבה
יותר רשלנית ופושעת, מאשר התנהלותו של הראשון. באופן זה כאמור השני אכן יתחייב בתשלומי נזקי הראשון.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Chochom Einov B'Roishoi
« Reply #139 on: October 01, 2020, 05:45:46 PM »
This is why I would compare going into a nursing home to drunk driving. I would think someone who knows he is contagious going into a nursing home is a rodef.

The reason I think it's worse than drunk driving - is that it's much higher chances that he's contagious (and will kill) than a typical drunk driver.
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