Author Topic: COVIDiots  (Read 64516 times)

Offline yerushabubby

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #180 on: February 23, 2021, 12:35:54 PM »
I agree !00% that what they did was completely wrong.

 Unfortunately, there are many in the chareidi community whose distrust of the Israeli government is so ingrained that they are sure that most of what the government says is false.  They refuse to test (unless forced to do so), largely because of the many VERIFIED accounts of people who received a positive test result on a sample that was never submitted to a lab.  The government has been caught playing games with the numbers in order to make them say what they want - keeping everything open through July and August, as the covid cases skyrocketed, and then closing everything down just in time for the Yomim Tovim.

 Many are sure that they either already had Covid, or are immune to it, so they see no reason to get an expensive test just in order to fly.

 They are wrong, but the biggest problem lies in the way information and MISINFORMATION are spread in their communities.

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #181 on: February 23, 2021, 12:37:12 PM »
I agree !00% that what they did was completely wrong.
Do we know if they knew they were positive, or if they were just too lazy to test? Not that it makes it okay, but less malicious...
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Offline AsherO

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #182 on: February 23, 2021, 12:38:54 PM »
We had a walk-in into our unmarked shul, where as per state law, we have a mask policy.
When we handed him a mask, he cursed us out as apikorsim, katnei emunah, controlled by the government, etc.

I asked him if he wears a seatbelt, and he said of course.

No further questions.
I've heard this story first-hand from no less than 4 different shuls. Beis Menachem in Miami has had this happen multiple times.
Ironic twist to דע מה שתשיב
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #183 on: February 23, 2021, 12:46:01 PM »
It is mind-boggling that chumra of the month club extends to everything besides COVID. Would love to hear a cogent explanation for it.

IMHO, it's a confluence of many factors, which all affect each other. Covid became a political football in the most partisan political environment that our communities were deeply involved in an unprecedented way, a masked person, for instance, is viewed as a Biden voting Libtard; historic distrust of politicians; distrust of public health officials due to initial incompetence, unnecessary deaths in first waves due to awful care, lack of clear, cogent, practical guidelines coming of the first wave; hypocrisy and double standards in guidelines and enforcement; conflating covid rules with gzeiras shmad of years gone by; to an extent, all communities have segments of noncompliance which are highlighted and stick out more when it is frum Jews; probably others I'm forgetting.

This is not an excuse of why are doing what we are, it's a partial explanation of why people are behaving in ways they shouldn't be.

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #184 on: February 23, 2021, 12:46:28 PM »
It is mind-boggling that chumra of the month club extends to everything besides COVID. Would love to hear a cogent explanation for it.
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=4&daf=91b&format=pdf
א"ר יעקב א"ר יוחנן אין עושין חבורה שכולה גרים שמא ידקדקו בו ויביאוהו לידי פסול:
רש"י ד"ה ידקדקו בו. משום שאינן בני תורה יחמירו עליו לדקדק ויפסילוהו על חנם:
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #185 on: February 23, 2021, 12:54:44 PM »
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=4&daf=91b&format=pdf
א"ר יעקב א"ר יוחנן אין עושין חבורה שכולה גרים שמא ידקדקו בו ויביאוהו לידי פסול:
רש"י ד"ה ידקדקו בו. משום שאינן בני תורה יחמירו עליו לדקדק ויפסילוהו על חנם:
How does that explain anything? That's the other way around. That explains the anti eiruv guys, etc.

Offline TimT

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #186 on: February 23, 2021, 12:55:52 PM »
Unfortunately, there are many in the chareidi community whose distrust of the Israeli government is so ingrained that they are sure that most of what the government says is false.  They refuse to test (unless forced to do so), largely because of the many VERIFIED accounts of people who received a positive test result on a sample that was never submitted to a lab.  The government has been caught playing games with the numbers in order to make them say what they want - keeping everything open through July and August, as the covid cases skyrocketed, and then closing everything down just in time for the Yomim Tovim.
What about the countless levayas ? How’s that explained away ?

Offline TimT

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #187 on: February 23, 2021, 12:57:08 PM »
We had a walk-in into our unmarked shul, where as per state law, we have a mask policy.
When we handed him a mask, he cursed us out as apikorsim, katnei emunah, controlled by the government, etc.
Such a bum goes out headfirst.

Offline S209

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #188 on: February 23, 2021, 01:04:40 PM »
-largely because of the many VERIFIED accounts of people who received a positive test result on a sample that was never submitted to a lab.

-The government has been caught playing games with the numbers in order to make them say what they want
Sources?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #189 on: February 23, 2021, 01:05:51 PM »
Do we know if they knew they were positive, or if they were just too lazy to test? Not that it makes it okay, but less malicious...

And then there are those like someone I just heard of yesterday who had covid more than a month ago, is still testing positive, and trying to get back to Israel. If he finds out of a way to forge a negative (AFAIK he isn't looking, this is hypothetical), he'd still be included in this story even though it's not even close to as being as covidiot and malicious as described.

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #190 on: February 23, 2021, 01:07:57 PM »
And then there are those like someone I just heard of yesterday who had covid more than a month ago, is still testing positive, and trying to get back to Israel. If he finds out of a way to forge a negative (AFAIK he isn't looking, this is hypothetical), he'd still be included in this story even though it's not even close to as being as covidiot and malicious as described.
Very true. Would they take proof of antibodies instead?
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #191 on: February 23, 2021, 01:11:12 PM »
Very true. Would they take proof of antibodies instead?
There is an online application form for an exception from negative PCR test requirements

https://www.gov.il/he/departments/publications/reports/obtaining_an_entry_permit_to_israel_without_a_pcr_test_for_the_corona_virus

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline AsherO

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #192 on: February 23, 2021, 01:17:14 PM »
It is mind-boggling that chumra of the month club extends to everything besides COVID. Would love to hear a cogent explanation for it.

What Yehuda57 said, and an opportunity to signal “piety”
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 01:21:43 PM by AsherO »
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Offline Dan

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #193 on: February 23, 2021, 01:17:58 PM »
And then there are those like someone I just heard of yesterday who had covid more than a month ago, is still testing positive, and trying to get back to Israel. If he finds out of a way to forge a negative (AFAIK he isn't looking, this is hypothetical), he'd still be included in this story even though it's not even close to as being as covidiot and malicious as described.
Will Israel accept a NAAT?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #194 on: February 23, 2021, 01:19:12 PM »
IMHO, it's a confluence of many factors, which all affect each other. Covid became a political football in the most partisan political environment that our communities were deeply involved in an unprecedented way, a masked person, for instance, is viewed as a Biden voting Libtard; historic distrust of politicians; distrust of public health officials due to initial incompetence, unnecessary deaths in first waves due to awful care, lack of clear, cogent, practical guidelines coming of the first wave; hypocrisy and double standards in guidelines and enforcement; conflating covid rules with gzeiras shmad of years gone by; to an extent, all communities have segments of noncompliance which are highlighted and stick out more when it is frum Jews; probably others I'm forgetting.

This is not an excuse of why are doing what we are, it's a partial explanation of why people are behaving in ways they shouldn't be.
Or...lack of leadership?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #195 on: February 23, 2021, 01:19:42 PM »
Will Israel accept a NAAT?
No clue, it was just a conversation I had with someone yesterday about a relative of theirs.

There is an online application form for an exception from negative PCR test requirements

https://www.gov.il/he/departments/publications/reports/obtaining_an_entry_permit_to_israel_without_a_pcr_test_for_the_corona_virus


Thanks, I forwarded that to them. Not sure if they knew about it.

Offline AsherO

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #196 on: February 23, 2021, 01:20:11 PM »
Or...lack of leadership?

That too.
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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #197 on: February 23, 2021, 01:20:40 PM »
How does that explain anything? That's the other way around. That explains the anti eiruv guys, etc.
In their twisted minds they feel they are being machmir on many different things.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline AsherO

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #198 on: February 23, 2021, 01:23:00 PM »
Will Israel accept a NAAT?

Maybe combination of positive PCR from a month ago, negative NAAT, and positive antibodies might work. Maybe they can add vaccinated to the mix as well, though that takes time.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: COVIDiots
« Reply #199 on: February 23, 2021, 01:41:02 PM »
Or...lack of leadership?

I can speak to CH only, and while you can say there is a leadership problem that predates Covid, the (unified!) Beis Din has been abundantly clear since day 1, but has been vilified and mocked by people unhappy that BD statements didn't fit their agenda. As for the medical leadership, they have been stuck between the rock of advocating restrictive guidelines that will actually protect the community and the hard place of talking to a ginned-up public hostile to any regulation whatsoever thanks to the reasons stated above.