COVIDiots

[Lurker]

I can speak to CH only, and while you can say there is a leadership problem that predates Covid, the (unified!) Beis Din has been abundantly clear since day 1, but has been vilified and mocked by people unhappy that BD statements didn't fit their agenda. As for the medical leadership, they have been stuck between the rock of advocating restrictive guidelines that will actually protect the community and the hard place of talking to a ginned-up public hostile to any regulation whatsoever thanks to the reasons stated above.

I've got very few issues with the way CH rabbonim and doctors handled Covid. But if the people aren't following, are they really leading?

[neveryou]

I've got very few issues with the way CH rabbonim and doctors handled Covid. But if the people aren't following, are they really leading?

Well the rabbi broin isn't wearing a mask anymore, so I'd say that ch is following the BD

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[Lurker]

Well the rabbi broin isn't wearing a mask anymore, so I'd say that ch is following the BD

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IINM, that development came well after CH abandoned masks. Maybe the BD is following the people. Without getting into CH politics, there's still no real leadership.

[AsherO]

I can speak to CH only, and while you can say there is a leadership problem that predates Covid, the (unified!) Beis Din has been abundantly clear since day 1, but has been vilified and mocked by people unhappy that BD statements didn't fit their agenda. As for the medical leadership, they have been stuck between the rock of advocating restrictive guidelines that will actually protect the community and the hard place of talking to a ginned-up public hostile to any regulation whatsoever thanks to the reasons stated above.

Basically, CH lacked a Rabbinic leadership long before COVID and any for-the-same-of-COVID attempts to feign unity and broadcast a unified message didn’t do much in the face of decades of public distrust and lack of respect for such authority.

As for the medical leadership, it’s been pretty IMHO (@ExGingi might beg to differ), but there’s only that much they can do if the community at large isn’t listening.

[Yehuda57]

I've got very few issues with the way CH rabbonim and doctors handled Covid. But if the people aren't following, are they really leading?

How can you lead a community that refuses to be lead? IOW, the issue is not leadership, it's followship. And I believe that stretches far beyond CH. People think if the Rabonim would only issue clear directives, everyone would follow. This has proved wrong time and time again, even unrelated to Covid. How many people are active on this very forum belong to communities in which internet is verbotten?

I know this is stretching way beyond the scope of this thread, but it is DDF after all.

[yelped]

In their twisted minds they feel they are being machmir on many different things.

So that boils down to lack of leadership. Problem is we seems to only follow people who don't lead.

[Lurker]

How can you lead a community that refuses to be lead? IOW, the issue is not leadership, it's followship. And I believe that stretches far beyond CH. People think if the Rabonim would only issue clear directives, everyone would follow. This has proved wrong time and time again, even unrelated to Covid. How many people are active on this very forum belong to communities in which internet is verbotten?

I know this is stretching way beyond the scope of this thread, but it is DDF after all.

I don't disagree. That's part of my core issue here.

[chinagel]

How can you lead a community that refuses to be lead? IOW, the issue is not leadership, it's followship. And I believe that stretches far beyond CH. People think if the Rabonim would only issue clear directives, everyone would follow. This has proved wrong time and time again, even unrelated to Covid. How many people are active on this very forum belong to communities in which internet is verbotten?

I know this is stretching way beyond the scope of this thread, but it is DDF after all.

In your opinion, if the Rebbe were alive, would there be the same issue?

[PlatinumGuy]

The traits that are present in the common folk are similarly present in the leadership, the difference is mainly in the impact of their actions.

[whacked1]

How can you lead a community that refuses to be lead?

How many people are active on this very forum belong to communities in which internet is verbotten?

True leadership is knowing where your community actually is and creating guidelines that have the possibility to be followed. Disclaimer, my post has nothing to do with CH or covid. rather:

I know this is stretching way beyond the scope of this thread, but it is DDF after all.

[Yehuda57]

In your opinion, if the Rebbe were alive, would there be the same issue?

I don't understand the premise of this question.

Seriously, I have no clue. I'm inclined to say no, but there were plenty of times when people ignored the Rebbe's begging and pleading regarding different things. People will be moser nefesh and go to the ends of the earth to help a fellow Yid, but at the same time struggle with day to day ahavas yisroel that requires slight behavioral changes.

[Lurker]

True leadership is knowing where your community actually is and creating guidelines that have the possibility to be followed.

To a point. If the leader creates guidelines that don't get the people to where they need to be, that's not effective leadership; that's management. Sometimes unpopular guidelines need to be established. You can't abandon the goal because people may not listen.

[aygart]

So that boils down to lack of leadership. Problem is we seems to only follow people who don't lead.

I can see where that would fit into the conversation, but not so much how it would apply to what I wrote.

[yelped]

I can see where that would fit into the conversation, but not so much how it would apply to what I wrote.

Lol, ok.

[AsherO]

In your opinion, if the Rebbe were alive, would there be the same issue?

I’d also like to hear people’s opinions/perspectives of what the Rebbe’s approach here would be.

[aygart]

I’d also like to hear people’s opinions/perspectives of what the Rebbe’s approach here would be.

Definitely whatever I say.

[AsherO]

Definitely whatever I say.

I'm sure people have their biases. But what the does narrative look like, how would it fit the rest of the Rebbe's conduct and outlook. Some מלתא בטעמא please.

[Yehuda57]

I’d also like to hear people’s opinions/perspectives of what the Rebbe’s approach here would be.

Lol, we definitely need more of people pontificating on what the Rebbe would have said, and when that contradicts what he actually did say, explanations of what he really meant to say.

[Lurker]

I’d also like to hear people’s opinions/perspectives of what the Rebbe’s approach here would be.

Very hard to say. The Rebbe's standard approach to medical issues was to listen to the doctors, especially a rofeh yedid. However, there were many times when the Rebbe told the doctors to look at things a little differently, and there were exceptions (seemingly lema'alah min hatevah) when the advice was to go against conventional medical thinking. In times of widespread danger, volatility, and uncertainty, the Rebbe's approach was almost always unconventional, making it virtually impossible to say what the guidance would be during these times.

[chinagel]

I don't understand the premise of this question.

Seriously, I have no clue. I'm inclined to say no, but there were plenty of times when people ignored the Rebbe's begging and pleading regarding different things. People will be moser nefesh and go to the ends of the earth to help a fellow Yid, but at the same time struggle with day to day ahavas yisroel that requires slight behavioral changes.

The question wasn't what he would've said. More, if he gave the same guidance, would he be listened to?
You were saying that people not listening isn't lack of leadership. I was wondering if that's true.
I have zero knowledge of the CH situation, just questioning the general statement that people not listening is not a lack of leadership.