Author Topic: COVIDiots (Read 66136 times)

Yehuda57 · « **Reply #220 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:19:35 PM »

Quote from: chinagel on February 23, 2021, 06:05:01 PM

The question wasn't what he would've said. More, if he gave the same guidance, would he be listened to?
You were saying that people not listening isn't lack of leadership. I was wondering if that's true.
I have zero knowledge of the CH situation, just questioning the general statement that people not listening is not a lack of leadership.

A Rebbe and the "leadership" in discussion are not in the same stratosphere

yelped · « **Reply #221 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:33:12 PM »

Quote from: chinagel on February 23, 2021, 06:05:01 PM

The question wasn't what he would've said. More, if he gave the same guidance, would he be listened to?
You were saying that people not listening isn't lack of leadership. I was wondering if that's true.
I have zero knowledge of the CH situation, just questioning the general statement that people not listening is not a lack of leadership.

Chabad are the most heise Chassidim you could find. There is nothing the Rebbe would have said thag they wouldn't listen to.

Lurker · « **Reply #222 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:47:29 PM »

Quote from: yelped on February 23, 2021, 06:33:12 PM

Chabad are the most heise Chassidim you could find. There is nothing the Rebbe would have said thag they wouldn't listen to.

Halevai. Unfortunately, that wasn't always the reality.

AsherO · « **Reply #223 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:48:49 PM »

Quote from: chinagel on February 23, 2021, 06:05:01 PM

The question wasn't what he would've said. More, if he gave the same guidance, would he be listened to?
You were saying that people not listening isn't lack of leadership. I was wondering if that's true.
I have zero knowledge of the CH situation, just questioning the general statement that people not listening is not a lack of leadership.

Keep in mind that the Rebbe’s leadership qualities are indisputable despite the fact that as mentioned upthread there were contentious issues where he was not listened to.

Your question might have been different, asking how things would look (compliance) if the Rebbe has taken a certain position. My question was asking what his position might look like regardless of whether people would comply.

AsherO · « **Reply #224 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:49:59 PM »

Quote from: yelped on February 23, 2021, 06:33:12 PM

Chabad are the most heise Chassidim you could find. There is nothing the Rebbe would have said thag they wouldn't listen to.

While your first statement about “the most heise chassidim” might or might not be true, your second statement is unfortunately incorrect.

AsherO · « **Reply #225 on:** February 23, 2021, 06:52:01 PM »

Quote from: Lurker on February 23, 2021, 04:29:38 PM

Very hard to say. The Rebbe's standard approach to medical issues was to listen to the doctors, especially a rofeh yedid. However, there were many times when the Rebbe told the doctors to look at things a little differently, and there were exceptions (seemingly lema'alah min hatevah) when the advice was to go against conventional medical thinking. In times of widespread danger, volatility, and uncertainty, the Rebbe's approach was almost always unconventional, making it virtually impossible to say what the guidance would be during these times.

Those are two aspects of it:
- The Rebbes approach to medical issues
- The Rebbes approach to major world events/dangers

You presented your case very well. But what would the Rebbe’s position/behavior be on masking, shul attendance, gatherings, weddings, etc etc.

Lurker · « **Reply #226 on:** February 23, 2021, 07:03:17 PM »

Quote from: AsherO on February 23, 2021, 06:52:01 PM

Those are two aspects of it:
- The Rebbes approach to medical issues
- The Rebbes approach to major world events/dangers

You presented your case very well. But what would the Rebbe’s position/behavior be on masking, shul attendance, gatherings, weddings, etc etc.

I don't know, and I don't think anyone can say. There are multiple aspects to that question. There's the tevah of it, with regards to what the Rebbe would have seen about the realities of the pandemic and the risks that we may not be seeing. There's the legal aspect, where there are considerations about accommodating local laws and mandates. There's the ruchnius of it, where decisions need to be made about balancing physical safety and spiritual health.

A few examples that come to mind are the scuds in EY, Hurricane Andrew, Jews leaving South Africa, and the decades of Soviet oppression. The Rabbe's approach to each of those situations defied logic, because the Rebbe saw things no one else did. And in the case of Soviet Jewry, sometimes the spiritual benefits warranted physical risks. Given that small sample, which is really just the tip of the iceberg of the Rebbe's leadership, I don't see how anyone can begin to guess what the Rebbe would say here.

AsherO · « **Reply #227 on:** February 23, 2021, 07:06:14 PM »

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Quote from: Lurker on February 23, 2021, 07:03:17 PM

I don't know, and I don't think anyone can say. There are multiple aspects to that question. There's the tevah of it, with regards to what the Rebbe would have seen about the realities of the pandemic and the risks that we may not be seeing. There's the legal aspect, where there are considerations about accommodating local laws and mandates. There's the ruchnius of it, where decisions need to be made about balancing physical safety and spiritual health.

A few examples that come to mind are the scuds in EY, Hurricane Andrew, Jews leaving South Africa, and the decades of Soviet oppression. The Rabbe's approach to each of those situations defied logic, because the Rebbe saw things no one else did. And in the case of Soviet Jewry, sometimes the spiritual benefits warranted physical risks. Given that small sample, which is really just the tip of the iceberg of the Rebbe's leadership, I don't see how anyone can begin to guess what the Rebbe would say here.

Thanks, I totally agree. One cannot say, but one might wonder...

Lurker · « **Reply #228 on:** February 23, 2021, 08:03:04 PM »

Quote from: AsherO on February 23, 2021, 07:06:14 PM

One cannot say, but one might wonder...

100%. There has never been a time in my life when I have felt a leadership void greater than I've felt this past year. I think a lot of the arguments last year over whether people were bashing rabbonim or if it was justified were based on people feeling this void and not knowing how to express or convey that frustration. The Rebbe left halacha to rabbonim and medicine to doctors, but when it came to hadracha, the Rebbe spoke up and didn't shy away from harsh language when necessary. Even if people weren't listening, whether they were chassidim or not, the Rebbe would push his point again and again. I'm not really involved in too many worlds outside of my own, but that's a void I know I've felt, and it seems a lot of other people have experienced, too. It leaves for a lot of wondering and not a lot of good answers...

EliJelly · « **Reply #229 on:** February 23, 2021, 08:55:15 PM »

Perhaps people like neveru have an idea on what the Rebbe's position would have been and it's the one that defies logic.

AsherO · « **Reply #230 on:** February 23, 2021, 09:01:20 PM »

Quote from: EliJelly on February 23, 2021, 08:55:15 PM

Perhaps people like neveru have an idea on what the Rebbe's position would have been and it's the one that defies logic.

@neveryou can speak for themselves

Lurker · « **Reply #231 on:** February 23, 2021, 09:05:25 PM »

Quote from: EliJelly on February 23, 2021, 08:55:15 PM

Perhaps people like neveru have an idea on what the Rebbe's position would have been and it's the one that defies logic.

To guess what the tzaddik's Ruach Hakodesh was going to lead him to say takes a very special person. I wouldn't assume anyone is that stupid without meeting them first

ExGingi · « **Reply #232 on:** February 23, 2021, 09:06:19 PM »

Quote from: Lurker on February 23, 2021, 08:03:04 PM

100%. There has never been a time in my life when I have felt a leadership void greater than I've felt this past year. I think a lot of the arguments last year over whether people were bashing rabbonim or if it was justified were based on people feeling this void and not knowing how to express or convey that frustration. The Rebbe left halacha to rabbonim and medicine to doctors, but when it came to hadracha, the Rebbe spoke up and didn't shy away from harsh language when necessary. Even if people weren't listening, whether they were chassidim or not, the Rebbe would push his point again and again. I'm not really involved in too many worlds outside of my own, but that's a void I know I've felt, and it seems a lot of other people have experienced, too. It leaves for a lot of wondering and not a lot of good answers...

Which might just be the exact way it is intended.