What a Chilul Hashem. Anyone else watching Cuomo's Press Conf?

[davidrotts63]

It’s a bit late now (though better late than never) but we have been pretty vocal with what we should have been doing: wearing masks, social distancing, moving as many events as possible outdoors, limiting the sizes of gatherings, keeping gathering spaces spread out and well ventilated, exercising greater precautions around those who are at the highest risk, and completely stopping all people who have been exposed or recently traveled to a current hotspot from attending any large gatherings

.
I know WHAT, the question was what this accomplishes, and how.

[S209]

.
I know WHAT, the question was what this accomplishes, and how.

The actual answer: Beat COVID (keep people alive/safe/out of the hospital)

Once again

What exactly is your question?

[davidrotts63]

Once again

Wow.
 Its a real simple question. How does shutting down save lives blah blah,  and what's the long term plan?

[etech0]

it bears repeating

[S209]

Wow.
 Its a real simple question. How does shutting down save lives blah blah,  and what's the long term plan?

I didn’t say to shut down. I said exactly what steps should have been done as case numbers were rising. When there is a robust testing system and compliance and even more modest precautions are adhered to (such as not allowing exposed people or those traveling from hotspots to attend weddings and keeping Simchos/events smaller, better ventilated/outdoors and more spread out) even these steps are probably not necessary. The long term plan is to keep living life that way until there is a vaccine, a good treatment regimen, or a widespread accurate rapid testing system that is robust enough to be able to identify and extinguish small outbreaks quickly and effectively.

[davidrotts63]

I didn’t say to shut down. I said exactly what steps should have been done as case numbers were rising. When there is a robust testing system and compliance and even more modest precautions are adhered to (such as not allowing exposed people or those traveling from hotspots to attend weddings and keeping Simchos/events smaller, better ventilated/outdoors and more spread out) even these steps are probably not necessary. The long term plan is to keep living life that way until there is a vaccine, a good treatment regimen, or a widespread accurate rapid testing system that is robust enough to be able to identify and extinguish small outbreaks quickly and effectively.

And if there are none of those?
Whats considered a good treatment regimen?
What does rapid testing help?

[S209]

And if there are none of those?
Whats considered a good treatment regimen?
What does rapid testing help?

Then continue living life like that until further notice.

Rapid accurate widespread testing can help quickly identify and extinguish hotspots while they’re small enough to contain, and can protect the more vulnerable by vetting the people they come in close contact with.

A good treatment regimen is one that lowers the IFR to a rate below that of the flu, including extended damage deaths (like COVID induced renal failure, heart attacks and strokes)

[davidrotts63]

Then continue living life like that until further notice.

Rapid accurate widespread testing can help quickly identify and extinguish hotspots while they’re small enough to contain, and can protect the more vulnerable by vetting the people they come in close contact with.

A good treatment regimen is one that lowers the IFR to a rate below that of the flu, including extended damage deaths (like COVID induced renal failure, heart attacks and strokes)

You realize the cost?
Life like this takes a severe mental and physical toll on everyone, more so Children and elderly.
CDC:

Stress during an infectious disease outbreak can sometimes cause the following:

Fear and worry about your own health and the health of your loved ones, your financial situation or job, or loss of support services you rely on.

Changes in sleep or eating patterns.

Difficulty sleeping or concentrating.

Worsening of chronic health problems.

Worsening of mental health conditions.

Increased use of tobacco, and/or alcohol and other substances.

As long as the Virus is around and spread, at any rate, the vulnerable can't live life as normal, the longer you prolong the spread, the longer you have this issue.

I don't understand how testing is a long term solution, as that again is preparation of the inevitable complete spread.

I'm not sure whats included in your gameplan, but I'm sure there is more at risk here with it.

ETA: Whats "Further notice"? What's if we NEVER get any of those?

[Afrages6]

Then continue living life like that until further notice.

Rapid accurate widespread testing can help quickly identify and extinguish hotspots while they’re small enough to contain, and can protect the more vulnerable by vetting the people they come in close contact with.

A good treatment regimen is one that lowers the IFR to a rate below that of the flu, including extended damage deaths (like COVID induced renal failure, heart attacks and strokes)

You would be fine living life like this for another 5-10 years?

[S209]

You realize the cost?
Life like this takes a severe mental and physical toll on everyone, more so Children and elderly.

Life like what? What radical things in the medium term plan (no known outbreak scenario) are too difficult to live with semi-permanently?

We already have capacity limits and ventilation requirements in place (and fire laws and drills, tornado, hurricane, and earthquake alert systems in regions that require it, etc.). Is it really so burdensome to adjust capacity limits, spacing suggestions, and ventilation requirements?

I certainly hope you don’t think the issue is not allowing exposed people to attend gatherings..

As long as the Virus is around and spread, at any rate, the vulnerable can't live life as normal, the longer you prolong the spread, the longer you have this issue.

And how do you propose getting rid of the virus? By letting it spread unchecked as we have? Or killing all the people it has the potential to in one fell swoop? Not really sure what your argument is here.

I don't understand how testing is a long term solution, as that again is preparation of the inevitable complete spread.

I explained how proper testing is a long term solution, as that would keep the threat of the virus erupting out of control to a low enough level that life could basically go all the way back to normal even for the most vulnerable. The only difference would be a regular need for tests around vulnerable people. Just one more industry added to help the economy. Don’t worry, they would prefer the burden of keeping tests handy regularly to being “locked down”.

I'm not sure whats included in your gameplan, but I'm sure there is more at risk here with it.

I am, I’ve stated it, and I’m sure there isn’t. You’re “sure there is more at risk here” but aren’t sure there’s more at risk with letting a disease run rampant? Seems slightly arbitrary.

Furthermore, at this point it’s reasonable to expect a vaccine within the next few months. No reason to assume it’ll be much longer than a year. This whole argument is predicated on the less-than-likely possibility that there *isn’t* a vaccine on the short term horizon.

[S209]

You would be fine living life like this for another 5-10 years?

Living life like what? When there is no imminent outbreak I said

When there is a robust testing system and compliance and even more modest precautions are adhered to (such as not allowing exposed people or those traveling from hotspots to attend weddings and keeping Simchos/events smaller, better ventilated/outdoors and more spread out) even these steps are probably not necessary.

Is that really too burdensome? Nobody wants to change any behavior, ever. But the virus didn’t ask permission before becoming a very real and deadly threat to many members of society. So we need to deal with it. Like we do with all threats to the vulnerable among us.

[aygart]

You realize the cost?
Life like this takes a severe mental and physical toll on everyone, more so Children and elderly.
CDC:As long as the Virus is around and spread, at any rate, the vulnerable can't live life as normal, the longer you prolong the spread, the longer you have this issue.

I don't understand how testing is a long term solution, as that again is preparation of the inevitable complete spread.

I'm not sure whats included in your gameplan, but I'm sure there is more at risk here with it.

ETA: Whats "Further notice"? What's if we NEVER get any of those?

So the first item here is to get help for those whose anxiety issues make them have panic attacks when they see people with a mask. My recollection is that this is something you had mentioned at one point. Yes there are those with pre-existing anxiety issues, some possibly not yet diagnosed, who will have panic issues from any relatively small change that may be needed due to a deadly disease. The first step of any plan will be to help them clue because, as we can see right here on these forums, such anxieties can undermine any steps taken to mitigate anything.


Life like what? If weddings were smaller and outdoors maybe even with masks in shul pr list capacity limits, what serous toll would there be?

[davidrotts63]

Life like what? What radical things in the medium term plan (no known outbreak scenario) are too difficult to live with semi-permanently?

Masks? SD? small gatherings...

And how do you propose getting rid of the virus? By letting it spread unchecked as we have? Or killing all the people it has the potential to in one fell swoop? Not really sure what your argument is here.

Back in March I suggested locking up the vulnerable for a month, 4 weeks no human contact, the hospitals could easily handle the ones we didn't know were vulnerable, and the known vulnerable who weren't protected properly. During that time the young and healthy should hug, kiss, and mingle to their hearts content, and really spread the thing, and from there ease back in. Why ease back in, and not straight heavy?
In case it wasn't spread well all over, and there are minor upticks still and the previously locked up vulnerable get ill.

I explained how proper testing is a long term solution, as that would keep the threat of the virus erupting out of control to a low enough level that life could basically go all the way back to normal even for the most vulnerable. The only difference would be a regular need for tests around vulnerable people. Just one more industry added to help the economy. Don’t worry, they would prefer the burden of keeping tests handy regularly to being “locked down”.
I am, I’ve stated it, and I’m sure there isn’t. You’re “sure there is more at risk here” but aren’t sure there’s more at risk with letting a disease run rampant? Seems slightly arbitrary.

you implied tests alone, without the other 2 solutions you mentioned. To which I asked, if the tests are all you have, everyone will have it eventually with no treatment, so what do tests help?

Furthermore, at this point it’s reasonable to expect a vaccine within the next few months. No reason to assume it’ll be much longer than a year. This whole argument is predicated on the less-than-likely possibility that there *isn’t* a vaccine on the short term horizon.

The fastest vaccine ever developed took 4 years, and that wasn't a novel virus, with Mumps there was already plenty to work with when they started, why is it reasonable to say this one will take 1/4 of that amount of time?
How did breaking records by 3 years become the more likely scenario?

Besides, those inside (Fauci, Gates) have changed their tones, they now say we will know by December "if an effective vaccine is possible" clearly they have a reason to believe a vaccine may not be effective.

Covid viruses were previously hard to create a vaccine for, hence why we have no common cold vaccines.

[PlatinumGuy]

There are multiple vaccines that are already known to work. It is a matter of months to confirm they are safe enough.

[davidrotts63]

So the first item here is to get help for those whose anxiety issues make them have panic attacks when they see people with a mask. My recollection is that this is something you had mentioned at one point. Yes there are those with pre-existing anxiety issues, some possibly not yet diagnosed, who will have panic issues from any relatively small change that may be needed due to a deadly disease. The first step of any plan will be to help them clue because, as we can see right here on these forums, such anxieties can undermine any steps taken to mitigate anything.


Life like what? If weddings were smaller and outdoors maybe even with masks in shul pr list capacity limits, what serous toll would there be?

Stawman.
No. We clarified, you were a drama queen and said I said that when I spoke of the reminder of the pandemic a mask brings.

Thats all the mitigation you want?
What do you call smaller weddings?

[davidrotts63]

There are multiple vaccines that are already known to work. It is a matter of months to confirm they are safe enough.

Like the company who in 10 years never made a successful product, and suddenly when the Government gives billions of dollars if you are making progress they are the frontrunner?

The company whos Chief Physician sold all his stock despite them allegedly being weeks from the most watched drug product evers release?

Meet Moderna.

[aygart]

Stawman.
No. We clarified, you were a drama queen and said I said that when I spoke of the reminder of the pandemic a mask brings.

Thats all the mitigation you want?
What do you call smaller weddings?

As much as you can claim you clarified, this issue keeps popping up over and over again including your post that I responded to.

At this point or 2-3 months ago?

[davidrotts63]

As much as you can claim you clarified, this issue keeps popping up over and over again including your post that I responded to.

At this point or 2-3 months ago?

If you're disagreeing with the CDCs assessment, by all means.

Not sure what the second question is.

[PlatinumGuy]

Like the company who in 10 years never made a successful product, and suddenly when the Government gives billions of dollars if you are making progress they are the frontrunner?

The company whos Chief Physician sold all his stock despite them allegedly being weeks from the most watched drug product evers release?

Meet Moderna.

Pfizer, Astra-Zeneca, Russian, & Chinese are all already known to be effective.

[davidrotts63]

Pfizer, Astra-Zeneca, Russian, & Chinese are all already known to be effective.

Much like the Moderna one is.
Sure, it could be, but the idea that we may not have one is far from not likely.