Author Topic: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests  (Read 45683 times)

Offline Dawie

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #360 on: October 14, 2020, 12:44:35 PM »
Let me clarify. The Torah advocates capital punishment. However, this is only when there are 2 Eidim, it has been ruled by Beis Din etc.
Compare it to today where there are still some states which use the death penalty. This wouldn't be termed as violence rather as justice served.
A country or state which uses such measures after a fair and unbiased trial for a crime which would warrant such a punishment wouldn't be termed as violence. Individuals taking the law in their own hands would be termed as violence.
מורידים ולא מעלים applies when?

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #361 on: October 14, 2020, 12:56:27 PM »
מורידים ולא מעלים applies when?

חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב' ס"ק ט"ז

נראה דאין דין מורידין אלא בזמן שהשגחתו יתברך גלויה, כמו בזמן שהיו נסים מצויין ומשמש בת קול, וצדיקי הדור תחת השגחה פרטית הנראית לעין כל, והכופרין אז הוא בנליזות מיוחדות בהטיית היצר לתאוות והפקרות, [...] אבל בזמן ההעלם, שנכרתה האמונה מן דלת העם, אין במעשה הורדה גדר הפרצה, אלא הוספת הפרצה: שיהיה בעיניהם כמעשה השחתה ואלמות ח"ו. וכיון שכל עצמנו לתקן, אין הדין נוהג בשעה שאין בו תיקון, ועלינו להחזירם בעבותות אהבה, ולהעמידם בקרן אורה במה שידינו מגעת

So violence isn't ok. But when someone does such an act and ppl can see that he is doing LeShem Hashem (which nowadays we are not holding by) then it would be mutar.


Offline yzj

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #362 on: October 14, 2020, 01:11:28 PM »
חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב' ס"ק ט"ז

נראה דאין דין מורידין אלא בזמן שהשגחתו יתברך גלויה, כמו בזמן שהיו נסים מצויין ומשמש בת קול, וצדיקי הדור תחת השגחה פרטית הנראית לעין כל, והכופרין אז הוא בנליזות מיוחדות בהטיית היצר לתאוות והפקרות, [...] אבל בזמן ההעלם, שנכרתה האמונה מן דלת העם, אין במעשה הורדה גדר הפרצה, אלא הוספת הפרצה: שיהיה בעיניהם כמעשה השחתה ואלמות ח"ו. וכיון שכל עצמנו לתקן, אין הדין נוהג בשעה שאין בו תיקון, ועלינו להחזירם בעבותות אהבה, ולהעמידם בקרן אורה במה שידינו מגעת

So violence isn't ok. But when someone does such an act and ppl can see that he is doing LeShem Hashem (which nowadays we are not holding by) then it would be mutar.
As far as I recall the Chazon Ish is talking about the din מורידן for those who are  מינים וכו׳. He is not ruling it out for those who are מוסר ממון ונפשות ישראל.

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #363 on: October 14, 2020, 01:33:09 PM »
He is not ruling it out for those who are מוסר ממון ונפשות ישראל.

Questionable in such a case if this is mesira

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #364 on: October 14, 2020, 01:42:28 PM »
Questionable in such a case if this is mesira
I’m not commenting on the particular case just on the chazon ish

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #365 on: October 14, 2020, 05:03:02 PM »
https://twitter.com/HeshyTischler/status/1316483413143162881

he's back in Business,
Imagine the face of De Blasio when seeing catch and release working against him....
Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #366 on: October 14, 2020, 05:26:42 PM »
Nice video, bunch of cheder kids

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #367 on: October 15, 2020, 11:02:02 AM »
Let me clarify. The Torah advocates capital punishment. However, this is only when there are 2 Eidim, it has been ruled by Beis Din etc.
Compare it to today where there are still some states which use the death penalty. This wouldn't be termed as violence rather as justice served.
A country or state which uses such measures after a fair and unbiased trial for a crime which would warrant such a punishment wouldn't be termed as violence. Individuals taking the law in their own hands would be termed as violence.
I agree that most times it's completely uncalled for. My point is simply that it's not because "violence is never ok", rather, "this violence is not ok".
The discussion should be what it turned into. i.e. the Chazon Ish. Is it applicable? What exactly is the din of moridin vlo maalin...
The chance of this being right is nil simply because it wasn't a thought out response lishma. But  the idea that violence is never approriate is not true.

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #368 on: October 15, 2020, 11:03:20 AM »
I agree that most times it's completely uncalled for. My point is simply that it's not because "violence is never ok", rather, "this violence is not ok".
The discussion should be what it turned into. i.e. the Chazon Ish. Is it applicable? What exactly is the din of moridin vlo maalin...
The chance of this being right is nil simply because it wasn't a thought out response lishma. But  the idea that violence is never approriate is not true.

Vigilante violence is not okay. That someone can find some esoteric exception doesn't change the truth of the rule.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #369 on: October 15, 2020, 11:11:11 AM »
Vigilante violence is not okay. That someone can find some esoteric exception doesn't change the truth of the rule.
When did Shulchan Aruch become esoteric?

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #370 on: October 15, 2020, 11:20:36 AM »
When did Shulchan Aruch become esoteric?
cut the trash. The shulchan deals with many esoteric cases. This response has zero to do with the discussion and you know it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #371 on: October 15, 2020, 11:33:35 AM »
cut the trash. The shulchan deals with many esoteric cases. This response has zero to do with the discussion and you know it.
Like I said, I don't think it was applicable in this case. But the reason is because those halachos were not applicable. Violence is sometimes called for even if it doesn't fit your narrative. I donb't really see the difference if you want to call it esoteric.

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #372 on: October 15, 2020, 11:39:12 AM »
Like I said, I don't think it was applicable in this case. But the reason is because those halachos were not applicable. Violence is sometimes called for even if it doesn't fit your narrative. I donb't really see the difference if you want to call it esoteric.
That there is an exception in very rare cases that may not even apply today EVER does not mean the rule or statement is wrong.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #373 on: October 15, 2020, 11:49:56 AM »
That there is an exception in very rare cases that may not even apply today EVER does not mean the rule or statement is wrong.
The cases aren't particularly rare unfortunately. The question if applicable today is a different one. And, it's not the only example where "violence" is seen as right.

Offline stooges44

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #374 on: October 15, 2020, 11:50:40 AM »
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1910305/powerful-op-ed-by-shlomo-yehuda-rechnitz-calls-out-tischler-as-rodef-slams-protests-in-boro-park.html


I was originally hesitant to write this letter however I decided that I can’t watch what’s currently taking place in religious neighborhoods and remain silent. If for no other reason at all, I’ll be able to say ”Yadai loi shufach es hadam hazeh”.

The Coronavirus is child’s play when compared to the potential devastation that is silently growing and metastasizing by the day. This new catastrophe cannot be cured by Remdesivir or any other legend drug. Furthermore the antidote would not be social distancing as from what I understand from 70+ years ago, there was no social distancing or masks in the gas chambers! It is irrelevant that President Trump moved the American embassy to Jerusalem and helped Jews in other ways, we Yidden are putting ourselves in a bigger Makom Sakana every day. I doubt that there is even one Goy who saw or read about our current vile behavior and did not instantly forge an innate hatred for the Jews. They’re not evil, it’s called natural. Just remind yourself about some of your inner thoughts while watching the fatalities during the BLM “peaceful protests”. The Goyim don’t necessarily have to care how many Jewish mortalities there will be in a specific shul, they are rightfully viewing this as a case where the Jews are being selfish, uncaring and above the law, which is causing an uptick in cases which will ultimately reach their own neighborhoods. “The Jews simply don’t care that we’re being killed”.

This is and will remain direct causation of unadulterated Anti-Semitism. To stir up anti-semitism takes a lot less than this. We’re breaking records now. This behavior has never occurred by Jews in America. We always knew our place. Pre World War 2, a lot of people could have escaped but never imagined in their wildest dreams what awaited them. Today, due to numerous reasons the world is on edge. People lost their jobs, people can’t pay for rent or food, people got or are scared of getting the coronavirus or perhaps they lost a loved one. People are extremely upset about inequalities across the spectrum. More people are taking phsychotropic drugs today than ever before. The world situation is fluid from day to day and one little spark can C’V cause the unimaginable. It also doesnt help that the Democratic Party as we knew it, no longer exists, as it’s been taken over by politicians who are trying to outdo each other in how “progressive” they can be. The root cause of our problem, the reason we feel so infallible is undoubtedly that we forgot WE ARE IN GOLUS!  This is not our Country. We are merely guests in America, where after more than a thousand years, we finally have the zechus to live in a Country without tight Jewish ghettos.

Unfortunately, Ltza’arenu harav, we have living amongst us a Behaima she’anenu tehora who is creating anarchy and chaos, which is being streamlined by the national media outlets. It shows indisputable proof that this self appointed, power hungry, inciter and demagogue Heshy Tischler who falsely claims that he represents us, is organizing demonstrations where we are to scream personal obscenities at the governmental authorities. “Dirty animals, Nazi’s, and Kapo’s” are just a few examples of this clowns overall limited vernacular. If this seems like I’m taking this personally, it’s because I am. He’s putting my family and your families at risk, and he knows it. But that’s not reason enough for him to surrender his candidacy in a race where his support won’t even hit double digits. What changed our mindset so suddenly? How did we collectively all forget that we’re being closely watched? Who is prepared to give a Din V’cheshbon on this colossal CHILLUL HASHEM? Did we learn this new behavior from the BLM movement? Is that who guides us today? Who are we, to decide which form of congregating is safe and which is not. The Medrash says: If you’re told that there’s Torah by the goyim, don’t believe it. But if you’re told there is wisdom by the Goyim, you can believe it.  We are in the midst of a never before seen coronavirus and naturally everyone is going to look to point fingers and place blame at the people who caused this. Half the Country thought it was President Trump. The other half believed it was the fault of China. This was finally the first calamity in history where the Jews were not being blamed. But not to worry. Some of our own people fixed that real quick. I am not an alarmist, but dare I say the immediate and long term consequences that are floating in my mind.

But technically this is all somewhat irrelevant. Because if with some magical wand we could theoretically prove to ourselves that our children and communities would be safe in schools, then the reality differs from the perception, and the latter rules.

Even if we are 100% right and are acting with logical reasoning, or we believe we can manage to not be seen without a mask, or we are convinced we’re being persecuted and singled out, or we realize that our children are not getting the best chinuch possible, unfortunately right and wrong are not at play here. We still cannot make up our own laws, and we are obligated per all the Rabbonim that I’ve heard opine to date, to follow the guidance of the health specialists. I have great faith in our Rabbonim that they will figure out an eitzah regarding the chinuch issues, and we’ll know it’s being done with Daas Torah. We must never forget that we are a nation of D’racheha darkei noam.

Yes, we live in a Democracy. And yes, we have a right to free speech, but Tischler’s hateful rants are not considered “speech”. We can always agree to disagree and there are judicial and political mediums that we can exhaust. We all have an obligation to be mishtatef in finding a resolution, but calling the Mayors wife a despicable name is dead wrong, defamatory and probably dangerous. This is not who we are. This is the antithesis of who we are! “A shining light (and sirens) unto the nations”. I personally watched  a video of Dr. Mitchell Katz (whom I’ve personally met several times) attempting to speak and help our communities in a much needed way only to be met with overdramatized false personal attacks on his charachter, to the point that he had to cancel the press briefing for fear of his physical safety. Forget the fact that he is revered and pursued throughout the Country and has established a reputation as being an apolitical figure who only takes into consideration what is best for the population’s health and well being, reasoning which should be beyond sufficient, but how are we so oblivious to the fact that these are the same people who make the regulations regarding Metzitzah, Shechita, foreign esrogim, the definition of death and when can they pull the plug, school curriculum, school funding, vaccinations and the list goes on and on?

But let me be clear. Heshy Tischler is not just a Zealot. HE IS A RODEF, yet it is us who will suffer the collateral damage! There is no Mesirah on a Rodef.

There is the view among many leaders that we should not bring up Heshy Tischler’s name because it will just give him the fame and publicity he seeks. This thought process is completely skewed. It would be useful in a scenario where someone is slowly building a following for the wrong reasons. You don’t give him the time of day, but here we are dealing with a completely different situation. Tischler is not under the radar. He and his vicious acts are known, recorded and in their face.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO NOW:

In my humble opinion,

Our representative organizations need to immediately relay to the City and State Government that we are completely unaffiliated with him. He in no way represents us. To the contrary, we make a point of not accepting him into our circles.
The only thing we have in common with him is that he wears a Yarmulke. Wearing a Yarmulke makes you religious just as standing in a garage makes you a car.
Every organization needs to put out a letter strongly recommending that they don’t vote for him in any election, seeking any position.
Representatives need to get interviewed by all mediums of media and be very clear that this prior felon is an impostor and may just have minimal support from other people who don’t have day jobs.
As most of his “followers” are children, we need to speak to their parents or Grand Rabbis to prohibit them from getting near him, or any of his events.
We need to announce and make clear that anyone who supports him is considered a co-conspirator (Co-Rodef) and will be shunned by all of our communities. Note: if you’re bored and want to check out his event, I recommend watching 20 minutes of a Holocaust documentary and then decide.
He should not be touched, hurt or threatened. He should just be ignored.
People make mistakes. All these restrictions can be lifted if he commits to put an end to any and all events, meetings, conversations, correspondences, that are in any way related to the coronavirus or any anti-government actions AND he sends a personal apology to any victims of his misplaced wrath.
While there might be a little extra work initially, in a relatively short period, we won’t have to act, react or defend ourselves to other people. They will then just view him as a very vocal vagrant with a few other friends who are just looking for attention.

Chasin kadosh b’rov tuv’cha nahel adasecha.

Shlomo Yehuda
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Offline stooges44

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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #375 on: October 15, 2020, 04:48:25 PM »
When, at times, we have witnessed heinous acts of terror committed by a few individuals in the name of Islam, we have all wondered where is the voice of the moderate Islamic clergy in condemning the violence and the madness. At those times, I have often thought that perhaps members of the mainstream, moderate Muslim leadership might feel that these bad actors fall so far outside the pale of their religious belief and practice that there is no need to condemn them. But, to those of us on the outside, the silence of the Muslim leadership appears as tacit approval of these horrible acts.

In a similar vein, while many in the Orthodox Jewish world might believe that the statements and actions of a few bad actors in Borough Park in recent days fall so far outside of the pale of Orthodox Judaism as to not even warrant condemnation, I fear that our failure to condemn these actions and actors may be construed by outside observers as approval and support. I therefore take the opportunity of this forum, and I urge any others in positions of leadership in the Orthodox Jewish world to use their platforms to condemn, in no uncertain terms, recent statements and actions carried out in the name of Orthodox Jewry that are, in fact, diametrically opposed to Orthodox-Jewish law and values.

I therefore, hereby condemn, repudiate and disavow:
· All those who have instigated violence and vandalism and those who have acted violently. Violence and vandalism are not the Jewish way
· All those who have spoken disrespectfully to and about any elected official and others in positions of authority. Jewish law demands that we respect the dignity of the office and its occupants
· All who claim that Orthodox Jews are not bound by American Law. One of the basic tenets of Jewish Law is fealty, loyalty, and complete fidelity to the law of the land.
· All who ignore and flout public health measures and directives. Jewish law places a premium on the life and health of all human beings
· All who claim to be speaking on behalf of Orthodoxy while espousing views diametrically opposed to Orthodox Jewish teachings. They do not speak for me or my constituency and I suspect that they do not speak on behalf of the vast majority of residents of Borough Park who are in no way involved in these actions
· All who accuse the governor of acting out of anti-Semitism. While I do not agree with the Governor’s Draconian measures against synagogues, I do not believe the Governor to be anti-Semitic. I well remember how careful Governor Cuomo was, when the initial New York outbreak centered around an Orthodox-Jewish synagogue, to avoid any language implicating the synagogue community and to emphasize how the outbreak could have happened anywhere. I believe the measures taken, which are unfair to Jews, are more likely a reaction to loudmouth activists publicly challenging the governor and daring him to come after the community.
· Those who attempt to divert attention from their own misbehavior by asserting anti-Semitism. Wrongly invoking claims of anti-Semitism as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility weakens and undermines the assertion in cases of real anti-Semitism.
· Those who invoke the Holocaust and Holocaust survivors in opposing the governor’s directives. It is possible that those who did so were conveying the reactions of specific Holocaust survivors who communicated their feelings to them. I will speak on behalf of the Holocaust survivors whom I buried as a result of this pandemic and the Holocaust survivors who have been completely shut in their homes for months. They understand how dangerous it is for Jews to be perceived as spreaders of disease and they would like you to comply with all public health mandates. Invoking the Holocaust is always dangerous and irresponsible and is especially distasteful where the comparisons are completely flawed and unwarranted.
· Those who, claiming to represent the Jewish people, have and continue to speak in ways befitting hooligans and brigands in order to further their own political careers. They represent no one outside of their own political interests.
· Those who act with anything but gratitude and grace toward the City and State of New York and the United States of America. We do not take our rights in this country for granted. Jewish law and tradition places a premium on Hakoras Hatov. We are grateful for the opportunity this country has afforded us and continues to afford us to practice our religion unmolested. While we will assert our constitutional rights as strenuously as any other ethnic group, we do so with the utmost humility, dignity, and gratitude that those rights are granted to us.
· All those who conduct themselves without regard to Jewish history and to our place in exile. The complete disregard for our proper place and conduct in a country that has hosted us so benevolently runs counter to the entire body of Jewish tradition and law.

It behooves the leaders of the community to engage in serious reflection and self-examination to consider whether the culture and education system has fostered an environment that led to this lawlessness and hooliganism.

I realize that in sending this to you, I am preaching to the choir, but I also recognize that when you are asked, you can say, my Rabbi forcefully condemned this behavior. I also realize that a number of these brigands and hooligans will claim that they, not I, represent true Orthodox Jewry. To the, I say that is simply a matter of semantics. Whatever you label it, it is clear that we do not share religious beliefs, values and ideals, and they do not represent my religion, whatever you call it.

Have a good Shabbos and a Good Yom Tov
Rabbi Yisrael Gottlieb
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Re: OSM (Our Shuls Matter) Protests
« Reply #376 on: October 15, 2020, 04:57:20 PM »
When, at times, we have witnessed heinous acts of terror committed by a few individuals in the name of Islam, we have all wondered where is the voice of the moderate Islamic clergy in condemning the violence and the madness. At those times, I have often thought that perhaps members of the mainstream, moderate Muslim leadership might feel that these bad actors fall so far outside the pale of their religious belief and practice that there is no need to condemn them. But, to those of us on the outside, the silence of the Muslim leadership appears as tacit approval of these horrible acts.

In a similar vein, while many in the Orthodox Jewish world might believe that the statements and actions of a few bad actors in Borough Park in recent days fall so far outside of the pale of Orthodox Judaism as to not even warrant condemnation, I fear that our failure to condemn these actions and actors may be construed by outside observers as approval and support. I therefore take the opportunity of this forum, and I urge any others in positions of leadership in the Orthodox Jewish world to use their platforms to condemn, in no uncertain terms, recent statements and actions carried out in the name of Orthodox Jewry that are, in fact, diametrically opposed to Orthodox-Jewish law and values.

I therefore, hereby condemn, repudiate and disavow:
· All those who have instigated violence and vandalism and those who have acted violently. Violence and vandalism are not the Jewish way
· All those who have spoken disrespectfully to and about any elected official and others in positions of authority. Jewish law demands that we respect the dignity of the office and its occupants
· All who claim that Orthodox Jews are not bound by American Law. One of the basic tenets of Jewish Law is fealty, loyalty, and complete fidelity to the law of the land.
· All who ignore and flout public health measures and directives. Jewish law places a premium on the life and health of all human beings
· All who claim to be speaking on behalf of Orthodoxy while espousing views diametrically opposed to Orthodox Jewish teachings. They do not speak for me or my constituency and I suspect that they do not speak on behalf of the vast majority of residents of Borough Park who are in no way involved in these actions
· All who accuse the governor of acting out of anti-Semitism. While I do not agree with the Governor’s Draconian measures against synagogues, I do not believe the Governor to be anti-Semitic. I well remember how careful Governor Cuomo was, when the initial New York outbreak centered around an Orthodox-Jewish synagogue, to avoid any language implicating the synagogue community and to emphasize how the outbreak could have happened anywhere. I believe the measures taken, which are unfair to Jews, are more likely a reaction to loudmouth activists publicly challenging the governor and daring him to come after the community.
· Those who attempt to divert attention from their own misbehavior by asserting anti-Semitism. Wrongly invoking claims of anti-Semitism as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility weakens and undermines the assertion in cases of real anti-Semitism.
· Those who invoke the Holocaust and Holocaust survivors in opposing the governor’s directives. It is possible that those who did so were conveying the reactions of specific Holocaust survivors who communicated their feelings to them. I will speak on behalf of the Holocaust survivors whom I buried as a result of this pandemic and the Holocaust survivors who have been completely shut in their homes for months. They understand how dangerous it is for Jews to be perceived as spreaders of disease and they would like you to comply with all public health mandates. Invoking the Holocaust is always dangerous and irresponsible and is especially distasteful where the comparisons are completely flawed and unwarranted.
· Those who, claiming to represent the Jewish people, have and continue to speak in ways befitting hooligans and brigands in order to further their own political careers. They represent no one outside of their own political interests.
· Those who act with anything but gratitude and grace toward the City and State of New York and the United States of America. We do not take our rights in this country for granted. Jewish law and tradition places a premium on Hakoras Hatov. We are grateful for the opportunity this country has afforded us and continues to afford us to practice our religion unmolested. While we will assert our constitutional rights as strenuously as any other ethnic group, we do so with the utmost humility, dignity, and gratitude that those rights are granted to us.
· All those who conduct themselves without regard to Jewish history and to our place in exile. The complete disregard for our proper place and conduct in a country that has hosted us so benevolently runs counter to the entire body of Jewish tradition and law.

It behooves the leaders of the community to engage in serious reflection and self-examination to consider whether the culture and education system has fostered an environment that led to this lawlessness and hooliganism.

I realize that in sending this to you, I am preaching to the choir, but I also recognize that when you are asked, you can say, my Rabbi forcefully condemned this behavior. I also realize that a number of these brigands and hooligans will claim that they, not I, represent true Orthodox Jewry. To the, I say that is simply a matter of semantics. Whatever you label it, it is clear that we do not share religious beliefs, values and ideals, and they do not represent my religion, whatever you call it.

Have a good Shabbos and a Good Yom Tov
Rabbi Yisrael Gottlieb

Not sure who this is, but this is the TLDR version

And what is worse, they are blaming their hefkerus on yiddishkeit. This is giving me a new perspective of how Islam also may not be inherently violent and how it may be just some hotheads who managed to rabblerouse.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Mf1

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