Who do you think will win the GA runoff (and US Senate)?

[PlatinumGuy]

Not sure what I am supposed to be seeing there, but anyone who at any point thinks that morality means to forcefully take honestly earned money from the person who earned it and give it to the one who did not is both heartless and brainless.

Didn't open the link, but the Torah calls for forcefully taking honestly earned money from the person who earned it and giving it to the one who did not.

[aygart]

Didn't open the link, but the Torah calls for forcefully taking honestly earned money from the person who earned it and giving it to the one who did not.

Only within some very specific limitations to keep the person alive, unless you are referring to trumos and maasros. Maybe I should have been more specific and lengthy, but to even compare the torah's view to socialism is ridiculous.

[PlatinumGuy]

Only within some very specific limitations to keep the person alive

כופין על מצוות צדקה

די מחסורו אשר יחסר לו

 כתובות דף סז עמוד ב
תנו רבנן: "די מחסורו" (דברים טו, ח) - אתה מצווה עליו לפרנסו, ואי אתה מצווה עליו לעשרו.                                                 
                 "אשר יחסר לו" (דברים שם) - אפילו סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
אמרו עליו על הלל הזקן, שלקח לעני בן טובים אחד, סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
 פעם אחת לא מצא עבד לרוץ לפניו, ורץ לפניו שלשה מילין.



IINM the Rashba says any majority of a locale can impose any taxes they wish.

The Torah calls for redistributing wealth in the bluntest terms.

[aygart]

כופין על מצוות צדקה

די מחסורו אשר יחסר לו

 כתובות דף סז עמוד ב
תנו רבנן: "די מחסורו" (דברים טו, ח) - אתה מצווה עליו לפרנסו, ואי אתה מצווה עליו לעשרו.                                                 
                 "אשר יחסר לו" (דברים שם) - אפילו סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
אמרו עליו על הלל הזקן, שלקח לעני בן טובים אחד, סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
 פעם אחת לא מצא עבד לרוץ לפניו, ורץ לפניו שלשה מילין.



IINM the Rashba says any majority of a locale can impose any taxes they wish.

The Torah calls for redistributing wealth in the bluntest terms.

But what does it say about someone who never should have gotten himself used to fancy foods? You are taking what fits your agenda and ignoring the rest. No the torah does not call for taking things away just so people can be equal. If you are trying to say that socialism is a torah ideal then we have nothing more to discuss.

[PlatinumGuy]

But what does it say about someone who never should have gotten himself used to fancy foods? You are taking what fits your agenda and ignoring the rest. No the torah does not call for taking things away just so people can be equal. If you are trying to say that socialism is a torah ideal then we have nothing more to discuss.

I never said the Torah called for making people equal. You changed my argument because it proved your two previous statements flat wrong.

The Torah does call for taking money from those who 'earned it honestly' and giving it to those who didn't. The Torah doesn't limit that to survival, but to a level of decent comfort. The Torah doesn't call for making it equal, and I never claimed it dd.

For the record, I detest all forms of government redistribution and wish I could live in a truly libertarian society.

[aygart]

I never said the Torah called for making people equal. You changed my argument because it proved your two previous statements flat wrong.

The Torah does call for taking money from those who 'earned it honestly' and giving it to those who didn't. The Torah doesn't limit that to survival, but to a level of decent comfort. The Torah doesn't call for making it equal, and I never claimed it dd.

For the record, I detest all forms of government redistribution and wish I could live in a truly libertarian society.

Maybe you should have looked at what I was responding to which was about socialism and redistribution for equality. It is not to a decent level of comfort but to what they are legitimately used to. I do not remember source, but my recollection is that we do not force to even that level. You claim to detest redistribution yet advance it at every opportunity.

[PlatinumGuy]

It is not to a decent level of comfort but to what they are legitimately used to.

What they are legitimately used to is a decent level of comfort

[aygart]

What they are legitimately used to is a decent level of comfort

That depends on the person.

[AsherO]

כופין על מצוות צדקה

די מחסורו אשר יחסר לו

 כתובות דף סז עמוד ב
תנו רבנן: "די מחסורו" (דברים טו, ח) - אתה מצווה עליו לפרנסו, ואי אתה מצווה עליו לעשרו.                                                 
                 "אשר יחסר לו" (דברים שם) - אפילו סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
אמרו עליו על הלל הזקן, שלקח לעני בן טובים אחד, סוס לרכוב עליו, ועבד לרוץ לפניו.
 פעם אחת לא מצא עבד לרוץ לפניו, ורץ לפניו שלשה מילין.



IINM the Rashba says any majority of a locale can impose any taxes they wish.

The Torah calls for redistributing wealth in the bluntest terms.

The Torah calls for feeding the poor to their minimal requirements, two meals on a weekday and 3 meals on a Sabbath or holiday. That's the extent of the communal obligation.

The obligation to provide a poor person the same standard of living as before they became impoverished is an individual mandate, not a communal mandate and certainly not one you can force communities to.

The fact that a community can decide to impose whatever taxes they'd like has nothing to do with charity or wealth distriution, it has to do with the power given to a duly elected community board.

[AsherO]

What they are legitimately used to is a decent level of comfort

Not it isn't.  The former is subjective and varies from one person to another, the latter is objective and applies to all poor people in a community equally.

[PlatinumGuy]

The obligation to provide a poor person the same standard of living as before they became impoverished is an individual mandate, not a communal mandate and certainly not one you can force communities to.

The individual mandate of Tzadkah is enforceable by Beit Din according to the torah.

ETA: According to some opinions, which is part of the Torah since אלו ואלו דברי אלוקים חיים

https://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/12814

[PlatinumGuy]

That depends on the person.

True but it works the other way around, די מחסורו אשר יחסר לו, means that the standard of a 'decent level of comfort' isn't achieved until he has what he was (legitimately) accustomed too. I agree a baseline 'decent level of comfort' is very minimal, but it would be more than 'keeping them alive'.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything substantial here though.

[aygart]

I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything substantial here though.

Probably true. The quote I took exception to was about socialist redistribution for equality. That is both heartless and brainless.

[ExGingi]

Probably true. The store I too exception to was about socialist redistribution for equality. That is both heartless and brainless.

Socialism and Capitalism are two ideas. What we actually end up with is different flavors of Cronyism.

[aygart]

Socialism and Capitalism are two ideas. What we actually end up with is different flavors of Cronyism.

בזוי אתה מאד שאין מעמידין מלך בן מלך

[biobook]

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/

This page looks for the origin of the saying "If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain" and lists several people who have said something like that over the past 150 years. 

What I find fascinating about this is the assumption that many people change their political leanings as they grow older.  I haven't.  Have you?  Did your parents?

[PlatinumGuy]

https://twitter.com/georgiademocrat/status/1359928115124961282

הזורעים בדמעה ברינה יקצורו, מי שטרח בערב שבת יאכל בשבת