When will a vaccine *really* be available?

[yuneeq]

I helped convince a grandmother in her 70s to vaccinate who was nervous because of this reason along with all the anti vax propaganda she's heard.

Been trying to convince an extremely fragile elderly relative to vaccinate, but his wife (and decision maker) is worried about bell's palsy because he has history with it. But he can go to indoor parties with 150 unmasked people. If his social life is that important to keep him happy and full of life (and it likely is), then COVID isn't a farfetched risk, it's reality.

[avromie7]

Oh I fully agree, from Fauci to Ditchek the messaging has been an absolute disaster. My issue is that now a sizable portion of the population just decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater; I can't count how many times any IRL conversation about Covid somehow devolves into a highly charged debate about Fauci (or whoever your local Fauci is). Now the entire medical science field is tainted by these public figures - and people are too stubborn (for lack of better adjective) to see past this.


As an aside, I've personally had similar discussions with Lakewood doctors - pleading with them to realize this threat:

It's nearly impossible to get the real facts without any of the political garbage. How do you expect people to differentiate between all the times the CDC and Fauci lied and the few times they tell the truth? If people can't get the truth from the public health system they're left to try to decipher it on their own based on friends and whatsapp.

[Euclid]

It's nearly impossible to get the real facts without any of the political garbage. How do you expect people to differentiate between all the times the CDC and Fauci lied and the few times they tell the truth? If people can't get the truth from the public health system they're left to try to decipher it on their own based on friends and whatsapp.

You're telling me that people can't find a good doctor that they trust? No one is asking them to read studies themselves. Why are friends and WhatsApp the go-to for information?

[Lurker]

It's nearly impossible to get the real facts without any of the political garbage. How do you expect people to differentiate between all the times the CDC and Fauci lied and the few times they tell the truth? If people can't get the truth from the public health system they're left to try to decipher it on their own based on friends and whatsapp.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe's go-to advice of consulting with a rofeh yedid seems more and more prescient. It also seems like common sense, but who has that anymore...

[avromie7]

You're telling me that people can't find a good doctor that they trust? No one is asking them to read studies themselves. Why are friends and WhatsApp the go-to for information?

How many different conflicting opinions have we heard from Doctors in Lakewood alone? Many Drs are just following the CDC guidelines, they're just an extension of the problem.

[Euclid]

How many different conflicting opinions have we heard from Doctors in Lakewood alone?

I haven't heard any significant conflicting information from doctors in Lakewood. (Aside from the first month when Dr. Shanik was the outlier with regards to shutting things down.)

ETA: regardless, all you need is one doctor you trust. 

[avromie7]

I haven't heard any significant conflicting information from doctors in Lakewood. (Aside from the first month when Dr. Shanik was the outlier with regards to shutting things down.)

I heard 3 different opinions from 3 different Doctors about how long my kids need to quarantine when we had COVID.

[Euclid]

I heard 3 different opinions from 3 different Doctors about how long my kids need to quarantine when we had COVID.

Did any of them say "no quarantine"? Otherwise that isn't a significant difference.

Either way, even if you find doctors that have significant difference of opinion - they still should be relying on a doctor (whom they trust personally) to make medical decisions. Not the coffee room or shul or some random forum on the internet (DDF). "Doctors don't know anything about covid and I don't trust any doctors (except Drs. Zelenko and Scott Atlas) anymore" is intellectually lazy.

[avromie7]

Did any of them say "no quarantine"? Otherwise that isn't a significant difference.

Either way, even if you find doctors that have significant difference of opinion - they still should be relying on a doctor (whom they trust personally) to make medical decisions. Not the coffee room or shul or some random forum on the internet (DDF). "Doctors don't know anything about covid and I don't trust any doctors (except Drs. Zelenko and Scott Atlas) anymore" is intellectually lazy.

One said 7 days from our first symptoms, another said 7 days from when we are no longer contagious with a PCR test on day 5, and the 3rd said 14 days from when we're no longer contagious.

[Lurker]

One said 7 days from our first symptoms, another said 7 days from when we are no longer contagious with a PCR test on day 5, and the 3rd said 14 days from when we're no longer contagious.

First doc sounds like a misunderstanding. Never seen any guidance remotely like that. Second doc is giving the standard easy-way-out guidance for people who won't quarantine. Third doc is following actual CDC guidelines.

[avromie7]

First doc sounds like a misunderstanding. Never seen any guidance remotely like that. Second doc is giving the standard easy-way-out guidance for people who won't quarantine. Third doc is following actual CDC guidelines.

My wife spoke to all of them, they were all very clear exactly what they guidance was.

[Lurker]

First doc sounds like a misunderstanding. Never seen any guidance remotely like that. Second doc is giving the standard easy-way-out guidance for people who won't quarantine. Third doc is following actual CDC guidelines.

The vast majority of doctors, including those in political positions, agree on the correct course of action. However, they are dealing with people who won't follow the actual protocol, so they try to tweak it to get as much compliance as possible. As a community, we have experience with different rabbonim giving different heterim depending on who they are and who they are talking to. We take our Judaism more seriously than we take science, so while we scoff at those who shop for the most convenient heter, we don't think twice about shopping for the most lenient way out of quarantine. Given what the doctors are working with (in terms of people looking for protocols), it's not surprising in the least that their guidance is all over the place. What is surprising is people deciding that since the guidance is not uniform, it must all be fake and we shouldn't listen to doctors anymore. If someone made the same argument about Judaism, we'd think they were ridiculous.

[Euclid]

The vast majority of doctors, including those in political positions, agree on the correct course of action. However, they are dealing with people who won't follow the actual protocol, so they try to tweak it to get as much compliance as possible. As a community, we have experience with different rabbonim giving different heterim depending on who they are and who they are talking to. We take our Judaism more seriously than we take science, so while we scoff at those who shop for the most convenient heter, we don't think twice about shopping for the most lenient way out of quarantine. Given what the doctors are working with (in terms of people looking for protocols), it's not surprising in the least that their guidance is all over the place. What is surprising is people deciding that since the guidance is not uniform, it must all be fake and we shouldn't listen to doctors anymore. If someone made the same argument about Judaism, we'd think they were ridiculous.

+1000
Thank you for eloquently expressing what I was fumbling to say.

[Lurker]

My wife spoke to all of them, they were all very clear exactly what they guidance was.

I didn't speak to any of the doctors. I don't know who they are, what was asked, or what they said. I don't know where the misunderstanding may have been. But AFAIK, there is no guidance for exposed people to be able to leave quarantine 7 days from the confirmed positive person's symptoms. It lacks any sense, common or medical.

[avromie7]

I didn't speak to any of the doctors. I don't know who they are, what was asked, or what they said. I don't know where the misunderstanding may have been. But AFAIK, there is no guidance for exposed people to be able to leave quarantine 7 days from the confirmed positive person's symptoms. It lacks any sense, common or medical.

Should I be getting my information from DDF or from my Doctor? 

[avromie7]

The vast majority of doctors, including those in political positions, agree on the correct course of action. However, they are dealing with people who won't follow the actual protocol, so they try to tweak it to get as much compliance as possible. As a community, we have experience with different rabbonim giving different heterim depending on who they are and who they are talking to. We take our Judaism more seriously than we take science, so while we scoff at those who shop for the most convenient heter, we don't think twice about shopping for the most lenient way out of quarantine. Given what the doctors are working with (in terms of people looking for protocols), it's not surprising in the least that their guidance is all over the place. What is surprising is people deciding that since the guidance is not uniform, it must all be fake and we shouldn't listen to doctors anymore. If someone made the same argument about Judaism, we'd think they were ridiculous.

Is that the truth, or do they really believe that the CDC guidelines are political garbage?

[Lurker]

Should I be getting my information from DDF or from my Doctor? 

How many doctors do you have?

You shouldn't be taking anyone's word for it, but if DDF shows you sources for the proper guidance, you should definitely ask your doctor what his opinion on the official protocol is and why his guidance is different.

[Lurker]

Is that the truth, or do they really believe that the CDC guidelines are political garbage?

Have you asked?

[PlatinumGuy]

do they really believe that the CDC guidelines are political garbage?

Come on, the guidelines are similar in every country in the world.

[Lurker]

Is that the truth, or do they really believe that the CDC guidelines are political garbage?

Give me the theory. Why would the CDC recommend a 14 day quarantine under Trump? Where's the political upside?