Music Video Thread

[chamdena]

Source for the latter view? Even if it's an appropriate outlook on Rosh Hashana itself, the whole purpose of selichos is tshuva, and even tshuva mei'ahava requires a more serious approach than song and dance. Every sefer I've ever learned pertaining to elul and the lead-up to the yom hadin speaks of the seriousness of the day and the need for trepidation. There is certainly much to be said about the happiness of the new year, and even the elation that we feel at the end of the day, but I don't see how that pertains to the first night of slichos.

I am really sorry to hear that you are a victim of what you've read. If you really want a romance with Gd, if you want a joy-filled life, if you want to get really real with Gd.... There is no shortage of sources to support you in that. It might feel scary, cuz you may have been taught all that from your youth, but it is available if you're willing to risk it.

[chamdena]

To put it in psych terms: one who is healthy, and sees himself as the limited, finite, imperfect being he was created to be is quick to realize and accept his imperfections. There is NOTHING surprising or shocking to him about having "failed". Its exactly how he was designed. Next comes this unbelievable joy and gratitude that Gd is crazy over him! It makes no sense! Why would Gd b4 in a love affair with Jews who are only mortal, and his own little creation!?? That's a good reason to sing and dance!
Someone, on the other hand, who is ego ridden and self obsessed canot accept that he has sinned! It becomes a whole anxiety for him...

[chamdena]

And one can be SERIOUSLY JOYFUL. The two are entirely not mutually exclusive

[skyguy918]

Let's put it this way. I've never seen a gadol dancing and smiling during slichos. I'm pretty sure I'm going to side with that.

One component of tshuva (which I'm pretty sure is universally agreed upon as the central tenet of elul and the yamim noraim) is charata. If you want to show remorse and regret, no sane individual will tell you that the way to do that is by singing and dancing with a smile on your face. This is true even if you've reached the lofty level of tshuva meahava. The only difference between the 2 types of tshuva is what's driving you to do tshuva, not the 'mechanics' of tshuva.

[chamdena]

"Gadol" is relative. To me, one who dances at slichos is a gadol!

[skyguy918]

To put it in psych terms: one who is healthy, and sees himself as the limited, finite, imperfect being he was created to be is quick to realize and accept his imperfections. There is NOTHING surprising or shocking to him about having "failed". Its exactly how he was designed. Next comes this unbelievable joy and gratitude that Gd is crazy over him! It makes no sense! Why would Gd b4 in a love affair with Jews who are only mortal, and his own little creation!?? That's a good reason to sing and dance!
Someone, on the other hand, who is ego ridden and self obsessed canot accept that he has sinned! It becomes a whole anxiety for him...

"Gadol" is relative. To me, one who dances at slichos is a gadol!

Rav Yisroel Salanter in Ohr Yisroel says that it used to be people would tremble when they heard the word Elul. I'm pretty sure it wasn't related to his ego or being unable to accept that he may have sinned. Is he gadol enough for you?

[chamdena]

"showing regret". To whom do you need to show it? Gd can see it even if you don't show it, and just because you show it doesn't mean you have out... You know? Maybe challenge yourself a bit... Maybe there is a deeper concept of Gd, "gadol", teshuvah, etc. not only what you've been taught in 1st grade!

[chamdena]

Rav Yisroel Salanter in Ohr Yisroel says that it used to be people would tremble when they heard the word Elul. I'm pretty sure it wasn't related to his ego or being unable to accept that he may have sinned. Is he gadol enough for you?

From Awe. Not fear. And, people USED TO! If you'd like to try to "induce" it - fine. You'll prob. Be going in circles for your whole life

[chamdena]

In any event you can not "copy" a gadol and believe that that constitutes a relationship with Gd! Its an act.

[Achas Veachas]

and you can not divide your point into 3 separate posts and believe people will take you more seriously for that...

[chamdena]

True. I have no investment in anyone taking me seriously. Its a choice to become open to something or keep a snapped shut mind :-)

[Achas Veachas]

True. I have no investment in anyone taking me seriously. Its a choice to become open to something or keep a snapped shut mind :-)

It's not about open minds and closed minds, it's about backing everything with Torah-true sources. Relying on your own mind (whether opened or closed) is a very risky business.


ETA: and while there ARE sources that Teshuvah can and should be done with Simchah, those are usually speaking about the 3rd stage of Teshuvah (Kaballah Al Lehaboh). See Igeret Hateshuvah Perek 11.

[chamdena]

Welcome to adulthood and maturity. A relationship requires a risk. An act does not.

[Achas Veachas]

Welcome to adulthood and maturity. A relationship requires a risk. An act does not.

And serving Hashem doesn't tolerate any risks. We have a hard enough Avodah just doing what we're told without wasting time on failed relationships...

[chamdena]

Im sorry to hear that Yiddiskeit is so burdensome to you. I hope it gets better soon.

[Achas Veachas]

"showing regret". To whom do you need to show it? Gd can see it even if you don't show it, and just because you show it doesn't mean you have out... You know? Maybe challenge yourself a bit... Maybe there is a deeper concept of Gd, "gadol", teshuvah, etc. not only what you've been taught in 1st grade!

FTR these are not things we were taught in 1st grade, these are things we are learning and growing to appreciate every day.

[chamdena]

Cool!

[Achas Veachas]

Im sorry to hear that Yiddiskeit is so burdensome to you. I hope it gets better soon

Did I say anything about a burden? It takes a serious lack of maturity to see that seriousness does NOT equal sadness/depression/overburden.

[chamdena]

And serving Hashem doesn't tolerate any risks. We have a hard enough Avodah just doing what we're told without wasting time on failed relationships...

What your saying is that being an adult: i.e. being willing to take a risk and show up ad an individual in the context of GD, is a failed relationship. so you have no altetnative other than to "do as your told". That's really sad.

Look, to be honest: If you're happy and content in your relationship with Gd - Awedome. Good for you! If not, I am suggesting that there is an alternative. That's all. Take it or leave it.

[Achas Veachas]

What your saying is that being an adult: i.e. being willing to take a risk and show up ad an individual in the context of GD, is a failed relationship. so you have no altetnative other than to "do as your told". That's really sad.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, so let me clarify.
As you mentioned before, Hashem, being infinite, and us, being finite, have no logical way to connect and have a relationship. In fact for a finite being to have a relationship with the infinite is a logical absurdity. Now being that G-d is beyond the finite and beyond the infinite as well, He therefore has the ability to establish such a relationship IN SPITE of it being logically absurd (he is beyond logic as well).
Now, being that this relationship is something the HE initiated, it has to happen on HIS standards, the way HE set it in the Torah. Any relationship based on our finite "feelings" is by definition a failed relationship because it is a finite relationship based on finite "feelings".