Author Topic: Ideas in how to lower the temperature  (Read 23363 times)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #180 on: January 14, 2021, 10:45:13 PM »
I am not in the mood of going through a whole back and forth, and I can't say I read through what either of you wrote well, but at a glance, this all looked like nitpicking and only false in that you disagree with it.
He also said pretty much that whole article on his podcast the last two days, and he explained it in greater detail. Some of these questions fall away when he could articulate his thoughts in greater details.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #181 on: January 14, 2021, 10:45:56 PM »
That's not true. Here's one I happened to see

It very aptly calls him a bad-faith Republican, and notes there a few objectively false claims (I added some)

All three claims in the tweet are objectively true.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #182 on: January 14, 2021, 10:49:47 PM »
I can't say I read through what either of you wrote well

Right, so you were just guessing when you accused the liberal side of

The entire pushback was simply that they disagreed with him.


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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #183 on: January 14, 2021, 10:50:20 PM »
All three claims in the tweet are objectively true.
Which one of my 10 grievances do you dispute?
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #184 on: January 14, 2021, 10:53:43 PM »
Still remember how viciously Dems attacked Bush, McCain and Romney. And Ben is anti Trump in half of his tweets. I hate Trump too, but Dems and the media (I'm repeating myself duh) are the most dishonest bunch in history.

Can't wait for them to attack the next Republican as worse than Trump.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #185 on: January 14, 2021, 10:55:28 PM »
Which one of my 10 grievances do you dispute?

Well, you started off being flat out wrong by calling objective truths objectively false, and agreeing with the description of Ben as a bad faith republican. I'm inclined to agree, insomuch as virtually every political pundit operates in bad faith. Please put forth a few names of left wing pundits who operate in good faith, especially one who goes against party lines as much as Ben does.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #186 on: January 14, 2021, 10:56:36 PM »
Well, you started off being flat out wrong by calling objective truths objectively false, and agreeing with the description of Ben as a bad faith republican. I'm inclined to agree, insomuch as virtually every political pundit operates in bad faith. Please put forth a few names of left wing pundits who operate in good faith, especially one who goes against party lines as much as Ben does.

That was just your opening line, so I don't hold much hope for the rest of the megilla

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #187 on: January 14, 2021, 11:00:26 PM »
Still remember how viciously Dems attacked Bush, McCain and Romney. And Ben is anti Trump in half of his tweets. I hate Trump too, but Dems and the media (I'm repeating myself duh) are the most dishonest bunch in history.
Ben isn't a Trumpster & deserves respect for that but he is just as dishonest as the left media, you just like his medicine better. 

That was just your opening line, so I don't hold much hope for the rest of the megilla
"We have evidence that we won, we just can't show it"

Please put forth a few names of left wing pundits who operate in good faith, especially one who goes against party lines as much as Ben does.
I don't follow any form of MSM, blogger, podcasts or the like so don't really know. The only things I follow aside from Kol Haolam Whatsapp are a few twitter accounts, and I usually don't look at who posts what.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #188 on: January 14, 2021, 11:08:34 PM »
Ben isn't a Trumpster & deserves respect for that but he is just as dishonest as the left media, you just like his medicine better. 
"We have evidence that we won, we just can't show it"
I don't follow any form of MSM, blogger, podcasts or the like so don't really know. The only things I follow aside from Kol Haolam Whatsapp are a few twitter accounts, and I usually don't look at who posts what.

Wouldn't calling him a bad faith republican require a class of good faith operatives to compare him to? If everyone is bad faith on par with Ben then how is pointing out his bad faith fair?

I mean, this is their guest editor from yesterday

https://twitter.com/mattdizwhitlock/status/1349832381025419266


Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #189 on: January 14, 2021, 11:09:34 PM »
Right, so you were just guessing when you accused the liberal side of



No. It is just that you chose to take part of what I wrote out of context. Is he viewing things through his lens? Of course! That is part of disagreeing.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #190 on: January 14, 2021, 11:17:36 PM »
Wouldn't calling him a bad faith republican require a class of good faith operatives to compare him to? If everyone is bad faith on par with Ben then how is pointing out his bad faith fair?

I mean, this is their guest editor from yesterday

https://twitter.com/mattdizwhitlock/status/1349832381025419266

I don't know the people discussed, but nothing in your quoted tweet points to bad faith. It is very plausible to have assumed a catastrophic event could have occurred as a result of DJTs incompetence, very plausible to assume a better President would mean less Covid deaths (like most other developed countries), and thus very plausible to accuse Mitch McConnell and his staff of accepting that risk as worth it for the benefit of lower taxes/conservative judge.



No. It is just that you chose to take part of what I wrote out of context. Is he viewing things through his lens? Of course! That is part of disagreeing.
Not sure what I took out of context, you admitted בפה מלא that you didn't read the article in question well, yet unfairly attacked those who criticized it solely out of your preconceived notion that nothing anybody on any side of media/politcs does can possibly be right.
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #191 on: January 14, 2021, 11:17:43 PM »
there is one piece of history that keeps on nudging me
and that is Obama's response to Romney that defeat it him when he said that Russia is our #1 geo political enemy, and fast fwd. 4 years, trump being the worst guy in town for speaking with Russia, and destroyed a 5 star general Michel flin
["-"]

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #192 on: January 14, 2021, 11:24:39 PM »
I don't know the people discussed, but nothing in your quoted tweet points to bad faith. It is very plausible to have assumed a catastrophic event could have occurred as a result of DJTs incompetence, very plausible to assume a better President would mean less Covid deaths (like most other developed countries), and thus very plausible to accuse Mitch McConnell and his staff of accepting that risk as worth it for the benefit of lower taxes/conservative judge.


This is a tiny fraction of his rantings. Go on his timeline and see his stuff, it's crazy. And here's the thing, he's not a lunatic. He's a fairly mainstream, accepted leftist. Guys like Ben are infinitely more tolerant of other sides and opinions and are called white Supremacists!

And again, your opening was that he's a bad faith republican, compared to whom?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #193 on: January 14, 2021, 11:27:00 PM »
This is a tiny fraction of his rantings. Go on his timeline and see his stuff, it's crazy. And here's the thing, he's not a lunatic. He's a fairly mainstream, accepted leftist. Guys like Ben are infinitely more tolerant of other sides and opinions and are called white Supremacists!

And again, your opening was that he's a bad faith republican, compared to whom?
I don’t know other pundits to compare to, but being bad faith doesn’t require others to be good faith. I think Romney & McCain are relatively good faith
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #194 on: January 14, 2021, 11:27:31 PM »
This is a tiny fraction of his rantings. Go on his timeline and see his stuff, it's crazy. And here's the thing, he's not a lunatic. He's a fairly mainstream, accepted leftist. Guys like Ben are infinitely more tolerant of other sides and opinions and are called white Supremacists!

And again, your opening was that he's a bad faith republican, compared to whom?
Um, Liz Chaney, John Kasich, and Robert Muller.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #195 on: January 14, 2021, 11:28:34 PM »
I don’t know other pundits to compare to, but being bad faith doesn’t require others to be good faith. I think Romney & McCain are relatively good faith
It's like me saying that Jeff Van Drew was a good-faith Democrat.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #196 on: January 14, 2021, 11:29:24 PM »
https://twitter.com/ptbray/status/1349737708801822722?s=21

Congress tours stopped in March; and they are saying they were seen in restricted areas as well. Can’t wait for the investigation to come out

It's like me saying that Jeff Van Drew was a good-faith Democrat.
I honestly don’t even know who he is
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #197 on: January 14, 2021, 11:35:15 PM »
I don’t know other pundits to compare to, but being bad faith doesn’t require others to be good faith. I think Romney & McCain are relatively good faith

If the problem is that he shouldn't be invited to guest edit Playbook because he is a bad faith actor, then yes, you would need to show the kind of good faith actors that should be guest editing.

And those two are politicians, not reporters or pundits. And the way they were treated is a massive part of how we got Trump in the first place.

Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #198 on: January 14, 2021, 11:39:17 PM »
Not sure what I took out of context, you admitted בפה מלא that you didn't read the article in question well, yet unfairly attacked those who criticized it solely out of your preconceived notion that nothing anybody on any side of media/politcs does can possibly be right.
So lets review the whole quote including the sentence you deleted
There was nothing in that article that was dangerous,inciteful, or bigoted or the like. The entire pushback was simply that they disagreed with him.
THat they disagree with his conclusions and interpretations of what happened is all they and you seem to be complaining about. This is what you are calling objectively untrue. IF he was saying something inciteful etc then it would make sense. That they don't like his biased interpretation does not. Saying there should be pushback because of it is the opposite of having a civil conversation. From what I was able to glean from a quick review of what both of you wrote you may or may not have some good points, but nothing was there to give a reason not to have a civil conversation. Even if it actually is in bad faith that shouldn't lead to the pushback it did
Bad faith is you saying that the right needs to learn about civil conversation while defending those on the left who are refusing to do just that. You described yourself as trying to undertand the other side. This is a perfect example of how wildly unsuccessful you are.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:48:01 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #199 on: January 15, 2021, 12:00:51 AM »
Most of your points address Shapiro's piece as if history started in January 2021. If you aren't willing to look at things objectively and see how the way the left and the media (pardon the redundancy) brought us Trump, how can you reasonably expect anyone on the right to accept any culpability for their own actions?

As someone who leans right more often than not, I personally believe that the hypocrisy and double standards of the left should not have a bearing on whether Trump should be impeached or censured. It should be based on whether he committed acts worthy of that punishment (yes, IMHO).

But at the same time, I fully understand those who are more pragmatic. They know that the left has not shown one ounce of conciliation or integrity in more than 12 years, and don't believe the right can afford to show any kind of "weakness".