Author Topic: Ideas in how to lower the temperature  (Read 6431 times)

Online PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #165 on: January 13, 2021, 09:40:29 PM »
Question for @PlatinumGuy . Feel free not to answer (duh) but I'm just curious.

Where you a Dem supporter before Trump? Or were you a R but decided not to support Trump because of his character and rhetoric?
I’m still closer to Republican values (you’ll hear me arguing the dem side more because it isn’t as loud and obvious here as the Republican side), I took issue with Donald Trump before 2016. By nature I’m a die hard libertarian and wish I could live my life without government intervention at all, but I’m slowly coming to terms with the fact more and more redistribution is necessary. I would still support a system with mandatory charity replacing a big portion of the tax bill. I’m bothered more by gov’t implementation incompetence than any specific ideology. The country was founded and designed by a couple guys in Boston who didn’t want to pay taxes and wanted an absolutely minimal gov’t that would be little more than a few bodyguards. It morphed into the largest operator in the world with 3,000,000 employees, but the governance doesn’t reflect that and a huge portion of our incomes (And income producing capacities) goes straight down the drain.
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Online PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2021, 04:25:10 AM »
No it would not be treason unless he did  (or explicitly told someone else to do) something illegal based on that belief. (With regards to the freedom of speech question, I think members of the military lose some of that).

(I know the conversation has moved on, but I missed this post of the conversation when it happened)
Not that the minute distinction matters, but every enlisted member swears an oath to support and defend the constitution, any denouncement of the constitution is dereliction of duty which is punishable under the UCMJ, there is no requirement for any proactive criminal act, the mere neglecting of duty is punishable.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/892
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Offline YitzyS

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #167 on: January 14, 2021, 08:31:24 AM »
I’m still closer to Republican values (you’ll hear me arguing the dem side more because it isn’t as loud and obvious here as the Republican side), I took issue with Donald Trump before 2016. By nature I’m a die hard libertarian and wish I could live my life without government intervention at all, but I’m slowly coming to terms with the fact more and more redistribution is necessary. I would still support a system with mandatory charity replacing a big portion of the tax bill. I’m bothered more by gov’t implementation incompetence than any specific ideology. The country was founded and designed by a couple guys in Boston who didn’t want to pay taxes and wanted an absolutely minimal gov’t that would be little more than a few bodyguards. It morphed into the largest operator in the world with 3,000,000 employees, but the governance doesn’t reflect that and a huge portion of our incomes (And income producing capacities) goes straight down the drain.
I agree with 99 percent of what you are saying. Pretty much everything besides the Trump part.

I wish Trump never would've run, but once he did, and he accomplished so much, and he was attacked so strongly, I think my feelings of anger towards Dems for doing that far outweighs my hesitations of Trump's character. (I personally did not support him until he pardoned Rubashkin, which is when I realized that a president can make a difference in something I care about.) Yes, my respect for his presidency got diminished when he came out as such a sore loser, but I still think he is a victim of unfair treatment since before he got elected.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #168 on: January 14, 2021, 10:37:42 AM »
Any denouncement of the constitution is dereliction of duty which is punishable under the UCMJ,

Do you have any source for this contention?

Would it apply to those that say the second amendment is out of date, or that the constitution was written in order to protect the interests of slave owning white men?

Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #169 on: January 14, 2021, 11:25:08 AM »
Do you have any source for this contention?

Would it apply to those that say the second amendment is out of date, or that the constitution was written in order to protect the interests of slave owning white men?
Definitely not there in the link
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Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #170 on: January 14, 2021, 12:08:36 PM »
Donald Trump can extinguish the flames entirely in a single video.
Absent that, we will reach unity through bipartisan impeachment and prosecution of the terrorists.


https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2021/01/14/the-real-reason-most-republicans-opposed-impeachment-491399

Quote
Opposition to impeachment comes from a deep and abiding conservative belief that members of the opposing political tribe want their destruction, not simply to punish Trump for his behavior. Republicans believe that Democrats and the overwhelmingly liberal media see impeachment as an attempt to cudgel them collectively by lumping them in with the Capitol rioters thanks to their support for Trump.

The evidence for that position isn’t difficult to find.

....

Unity looks a lot like “sign onto our agenda, or be lumped in with the Capitol rioters.”

Conservatives see the game. It doesn’t matter whether you held your nose when voting for Trump; it doesn’t matter if you denounced his prevarications about a “stolen election” (for the record, I was met with great ire when I declared the night of the election that Trump’s declaration of victory was “deeply irresponsible”).

If you supported Trump in any way, you were at least partially culpable, the argument goes. It’s not just Trump who deserves vitriol — it’s all 74 million people who voted for him.

And that claim, many conservatives believe, will serve as the basis for repression everywhere from social media to employment. Evidence to support that suspicion wasn’t in short supply this week:
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Online PlatinumGuy

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #171 on: January 14, 2021, 12:33:16 PM »
I agree with 99 percent of what you are saying. Pretty much everything besides the Trump part.

I wish Trump never would've run, but once he did, and he accomplished so much, and he was attacked so strongly, I think my feelings of anger towards Dems for doing that far outweighs my hesitations of Trump's character. (I personally did not support him until he pardoned Rubashkin, which is when I realized that a president can make a difference in something I care about.) Yes, my respect for his presidency got diminished when he came out as such a sore loser, but I still think he is a victim of unfair treatment since before he got elected.
Trump being a victim and the Dems being horrible shouldn't change how one looks at Trump. The last year was horrible. Reevalute all of the Trump's 'great accomplishment'

Do you have any source for this contention?

No, but again, under which context denouncing the constitution would be considered dereliction of duty for z service member isn't the point. The point is Freedom of Speech doesn't override ones other duties


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Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #172 on: January 14, 2021, 04:33:41 PM »
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2021/01/14/the-real-reason-most-republicans-opposed-impeachment-491399
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1349788110519865344.html
Pushback on publishing this. So much unifying.
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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #173 on: January 14, 2021, 05:57:20 PM »
I think there are some serious flaws in Ben Shapiro’s argument, and I think he knows them yet publishes what he thinks his audience wants to hear, but those complaining should respond with an articulate refutation and not plainly demand him to be removed.

Does anybody think if Fox News ran a piece from AOC or Ihlan Omar the reaction would be better than this? The right news media doesn’t even try to cover both sides...
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Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #174 on: January 14, 2021, 07:37:52 PM »
I think there are some serious flaws in Ben Shapiro’s argument, and I think he knows them yet publishes what he thinks his audience wants to hear, but those complaining should respond with an articulate refutation and not plainly demand him to be removed.

Does anybody think if Fox News ran a piece from AOC or Ihlan Omar the reaction would be better than this? The right news media doesn’t even try to cover both sides...
Fox runs pieces from hardcore liberals all the time.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #175 on: January 14, 2021, 08:21:51 PM »
People lost their jobs at the NYT for running a opinion piece by a sitting US senator
Quote from: ExGingi
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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #176 on: January 14, 2021, 08:31:06 PM »
People lost their jobs at the NYT for running a opinion piece by a sitting US senator
That was pathetic.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #177 on: January 14, 2021, 08:47:02 PM »
I think there are some serious flaws in Ben Shapiro’s argument, and I think he knows them yet publishes what he thinks his audience wants to hear, but those complaining should respond with an articulate refutation and not plainly demand him to be removed.

Does anybody think if Fox News ran a piece from AOC or Ihlan Omar the reaction would be better than this? The right news media doesn’t even try to cover both sides...
There was nothing in that article that was dangerous,inciteful, or bigoted or the like. The entire pushback was simply that they disagreed with him.
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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #178 on: January 14, 2021, 10:21:44 PM »
The entire pushback was simply that they disagreed with him.
That's not true. Here's one I happened to see

?s=21

It very aptly calls him a bad-faith Republican, and notes there a few objectively false claims (I added some)

1) 'Republicans believe that Democrats and the overwhelmingly liberal media see impeachment as an attempt to cudgel them collectively by lumping them in with the Capitol rioters thanks to their support for Trump'

How in the world would Republicans voting for impeachment lump them with Trump? It would show the diametric opposite that they are opposing him.

(I guess he probably meant they are impeaching Trump only to hurt other Republicans even though they vote against it, since he's from their party, but that's a poor argument, he acknowledges Trump was responsible so it is incumbent of the Republicans to distance him from the party)



2) Sen. RON WYDEN (D-Ore.) suggested this week at NBCNews.com that the only way to prevent a repeat of the Capitol riot was endorsement of a full slate of Democratic agenda items.

He did not say a full slate of Democratic agenda items, only a full slate of democratic voting right related agenda items . Yes that's jumping on the political bandwagon, but it isn't at all such an outrageous response to Trump voter believing the country belongs more to them even when the majority vote against them.

3) 'Unity looks a lot like “sign onto our agenda, or be lumped in with the Capitol rioters.”'


As far as I noticed, the democrats aren't calling for unity now. Biden called for Unity before the Capitol siege, but since then it's mostly Republicans calling for it, including Trump in his message to calm tempers, and Republican lawmakers in a letter to Biden asking him to call off the impeachment in a name for unity, not to mention the threats of more violence if impeachment goes through. Democrats are simply pointing out in response the keys to unity lie in Republicans lap.

4)  It doesn’t matter whether you held your nose when voting for Trump; it doesn’t matter if you denounced his prevarications about a “stolen election”

Of course it does matter. Look at how Cruz & Hawley are singled out as opposed to others.

5) If you supported Trump in any way, you were at least partially culpable, the argument goes. It’s not just Trump who deserves vitriol — it’s all 74 million people who voted for him.

If you acknowledge Trump is responsible, I don't see how can you argue voting for him doesn't share in his responsibility, if minimal. His character was very well known, Lindsey Graham predicted it fairly well. Most here are saying they still think it was worth it.

6) No such consequences ever attended Democrats who winked and nodded — and sometimes more — at civil unrest around the nation emerging from Black Lives Matter protests and antifa violence over the summer.

Not a single prominent democrat did anything remotely as heinous as promoting the Big Lie. BLM called for a legal outcome, Stop The Steal called for overthrowing the election. Democrats should have done more to root out violence, but they aren't remotely similar.

Many of these donors are Republicans, the pressure on all but a few was insignificant if at all existent, yet they themselves decided to cut off Republicans. It proves the diametric opposite of his claim - even large GOP supporters see the Big Lie & Capitol siege as much worse, and it isn't merely democrat hyperbole.

7) Stacey Abrhams claiming she lost the election unfairly because of voter suppression is not remotely similar to Donald Trump insisting he actually won the election by a landslide.

8) Claiming Trump's inflammatory rhetoric is commonplace is ridiculous.

9) Accusing Bernie Sanders of similar rhetoric which ended in violence is pure libel

10) If anyone expects Americans to come together once the Trump era is over, that’s a pipe dream.

Maybe true, but not the smartest thing to write


I respect Ben Shapiro as a business person, and I think refuting fallacies is a lot more effective than silencing them, but this isn't the 'other side', it's propaganda fiction peppered with a few valid points. The zip tie comment was also very inappropriate when they were very clearly professional restrainers and not household zipties, the perp is ex military, and the DOJ already argued in court that he was attempting to take hostages. (ETA: On the day of the Capitol Siege, he said “Patriots on the Capitol. Patriots storming. Men with guns need to shoot their way in.”)

How would you feel if somebody published an op-ed excusing one of the terrorists who opened fire in a shul? Personally I would find it fascinating, but most would find it extremely offensive. Doing it with obviously false arguments would make it even more incendiary.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:45:28 PM by PlatinumGuy »
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Offline aygart

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Re: Ideas in how to lower the temperature
« Reply #179 on: January 14, 2021, 10:41:50 PM »
That's not true. Here's one I happened to see

?s=21

It very aptly calls him a bad-faith Republican, and notes there a few objectively false claims (I added some)

1) 'Republicans believe that Democrats and the overwhelmingly liberal media see impeachment as an attempt to cudgel them collectively by lumping them in with the Capitol rioters thanks to their support for Trump'

How in the world would Republicans voting for impeachment lump them with Trump? It would show the diametric opposite that they are opposing him.

(I guess he probably meant they are impeaching Trump only to hurt other Republicans even though they vote against it, since he's from their party, but that's a poor argument, he acknowledges Trump was responsible so it is incumbent of the Republicans to distance him from the party)



2) Sen. RON WYDEN (D-Ore.) suggested this week at NBCNews.com that the only way to prevent a repeat of the Capitol riot was endorsement of a full slate of Democratic agenda items.

He did not say a full slate of Democratic agenda items, only a full slate of democratic voting right related agenda items . Yes that's jumping on the political bandwagon, but it isn't at all such an outrageous response to Trump voter believing the country belongs more to them even when the majority vote against them.

3) 'Unity looks a lot like “sign onto our agenda, or be lumped in with the Capitol rioters.”'


As far as I noticed, the democrats aren't calling for unity now. Biden called for Unity before the Capitol siege, but since then it's mostly Republicans calling for it, including Trump in his message to calm tempers, and Republican lawmakers in a letter to Biden asking him to call off the impeachment in a name for unity, not to mention the threats of more violence if impeachment goes through. Democrats are simply pointing out in response the keys to unity lie in Republicans lap.

4)  It doesn’t matter whether you held your nose when voting for Trump; it doesn’t matter if you denounced his prevarications about a “stolen election”

Of course it does matter. Look at how Cruz & Hawley are singled out as opposed to others.

5) If you supported Trump in any way, you were at least partially culpable, the argument goes. It’s not just Trump who deserves vitriol — it’s all 74 million people who voted for him.

If you acknowledge Trump is responsible, I don't see how can you argue voting for him doesn't share in his responsibility, if minimal. His character was very well known, Lindsey Graham predicted it fairly well. Most here are saying they still think it was worth it.

6) No such consequences ever attended Democrats who winked and nodded — and sometimes more — at civil unrest around the nation emerging from Black Lives Matter protests and antifa violence over the summer.

Not a single prominent democrat did anything remotely as heinous as promoting the Big Lie. BLM called for a legal outcome, Stop The Steal called for overthrowing the election. Democrats should have done more to root out violence, but they aren't remotely similar.

Many of these donors are Republicans, the pressure on all but a few was insignificant if at all existent, yet they themselves decided to cut off Republicans. It proves the diametric opposite of his claim - even large GOP supporters see the Big Lie & Capitol siege as much worse, and it isn't merely democrat hyperbole.

7) Stacey Abrhams claiming she lost the election unfairly because of voter suppression is not remotely similar to Donald Trump insisting he actually won the election by a landslide.

8) Claiming Trump's inflammatory rhetoric is commonplace is ridiculous.

9) Accusing Bernie Sanders of similar rhetoric which ended in violence is pure libel

10) If anyone expects Americans to come together once the Trump era is over, that’s a pipe dream.

Maybe true, but not the smartest thing to write


I respect Ben Shapiro as a business person, and I think refuting fallacies is a lot more effective than silencing them, but this isn't the 'other side', it's propaganda fiction peppered with a few valid points. The zip tie comment was also very inappropriate when they were very clearly professional restrainers and not household zipties, the perp is ex military, and the DOJ already argued in court that he was attempting to take hostages.

How would you feel if somebody published an op-ed excusing one of the terrorists who opened fire in a shul? Personally, I would find it fascinating, but most would find it extremely offensive. Doing it with obviously false arguments would make it even more incendiary.
I am not in the mood of going through a whole back and forth, and I can't say I read through what either of you wrote well, but at a glance, this all looked like nitpicking and only false in that you disagree with it.
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