Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?

[PlatinumGuy]

There’s nothing civil about this drivel (to put it mildly) & as such I won’t be getting involved in it. Regardless it doesn’t belong in Covid board.

The only thing that's drivel is attacking something without providing any justification. It has as much to do with covid as anything in the board.

[iluv2travel]

Live and let live. Don't shut down a civil conversation when you can't defend your position.

Even if the conversation might still be somewhat civil (which is questionable), the road its going down can very easily lead to belittling and besmirching daas Torah as has unfortunately happened in the past. Might not be YOUR Daas Torah, but Daas Torah, nevertheless. That has no place on this board.

(Disclaimer: Not taking any sides or defending any positions in this argument, so please don't interpret it as such.)

[PlatinumGuy]

Even if the conversation might still be somewhat civil (which is questionable), the road its going down can very easily lead to belittling and besmirching daas Torah as has unfortunately happened in the past. Might not be YOUR Daas Torah, but Daas Torah, nevertheless. That has no place on this board.

(Disclaimer: Not taking any sides or defending any positions in this argument, so please don't interpret it as such.)

Exactly the point I made. קרח was also 'Daas Torah' yet his followers were duly punished.

 

Once you acknowledge Daas Torah/Gedolei Yisroel/LOR etc are subject to review and don't override the torah, you open up too many other leaders for criticism. Understanding the obligation to follow Rabbinical jurisdiction & authority is not infinite but has boundaries is way too much nuance to ask for nowadays, because then you'd actually have to defend the merits of every gudiance instead of just discrediting all question as illegitimate.

[TimT]

It’s time for the mods to step in and bring back the DDF boards to what they used to be; a place for civil normal helpful conversation.

Yup

[ExGingi]

Is there any safek here? All you need is a copy of some of the things they give out and it's clear as day. Not everything is hush hush, sweep under the rug.

You were the one who posed it in a question form to which I responded that ספק דאורייתא לחומרא.

AFAIK the issur doesn't depend on WHAT the topic is and whether the person/people being spoken about are right or wrong.

If someone sees something they believe is wrong, if they have the power to do something about it, then that specific action needs to be done, as the possuk continues לא תעמוד על דם רעך. But I fail to see how just talking about it with others, is permissible. If unsure about the issur deoraisa of לא תלך רכיל I would guess it is better to err on the side of keeping quiet.

[PlatinumGuy]

You were the one who posed it in a question form to which I responded that ספק דאורייתא לחומרא.

AFAIK the issur doesn't depend on WHAT the topic is and whether the person/people being spoken about are right or wrong.

If someone sees something they believe is wrong, if they have the power to do something about it, then that specific action needs to be done, as the possuk continues לא תעמוד על דם רעך. But I fail to see how just talking about it with others, is permissible. If unsure about the issur deoraisa of לא תלך רכיל I would guess it is better to err on the side of keeping quiet.

No issur with something that is known to 3 people. Condemning negativity is ובערת הרע מקרבך.

[yelped]

You were the one who posed it in a question form to which I responded that ספק דאורייתא לחומרא.

AFAIK the issur doesn't depend on WHAT the topic is and whether the person/people being spoken about are right or wrong.

If someone sees something they believe is wrong, if they have the power to do something about it, then that specific action needs to be done, as the possuk continues לא תעמוד על דם רעך. But I fail to see how just talking about it with others, is permissible. If unsure about the issur deoraisa of לא תלך רכיל I would guess it is better to err on the side of keeping quiet.

Not sure where that comes in when you have a chiyuv to ובערת הרע מקרבך.

[PlatinumGuy]

Not sure where that comes in when you have a chiyuv to ובערת הרע מקרבך.

It's all a pretense to shut down conversations they can't cope with

[yelped]

It's all a pretense to shut down conversations they can't cope with

🤷‍♂️ I like to think as myself as a pretty tolerant person, but I don't see what the heter is to stay quiet and look the other way at someone who is planting Avoida Zara within our midst.

[PlatinumGuy]

🤷‍♂️ I like to think as myself as a pretty tolerant person, but I don't see what the heter is to stay quiet and look the other way at someone who is planting Avoida Zara within our midst.

Because once you judge him you risk legitimizing questioning others as well. Too difficult.

[TimT]

🤷‍♂️ I like to think as myself as a pretty tolerant person, but I don't see what the heter is to stay quiet and look the other way at someone who is planting Avoida Zara within our midst.

So go to their shuls & show them where they’ve sinned. Hocking away on DDF against their rabbis accomplishes nothing & has no place here.

[EliJelly]

So go to their shuls & show them where they’ve sinned. Hocking away on DDF against their rabbis accomplishes nothing & has no place here.

Especially when the Rebbe discussed poses no threat in recruiting any outsiders, his followership is actually shrinking, so no point of confronting etc.

(And as a aside, @PlatinumGuy I tend to agree with you on the idea that even Rabbonim should be open to scrutiny here and there if their actions don't reconcile with the Torah, especially if they are just heirs in their position. But I just don't believe it can be done in a constructive way on a public forum, and I'm not sure I'd accept you to be the juror and judge on this matter either )

[PlatinumGuy]

Especially when the Rebbe discussed poses no threat in recruiting any outsiders, his followership is actually shrinking, so no point of confronting etc.

(And as a aside, @PlatinumGuy I tend to agree with you on the idea that even Rabbonim should be open to scrutiny here and there if their actions don't reconcile with the Torah, especially if they are just heirs in their position. But I just don't believe it can be done in a constructive way on a public forum, and I'm not sure I'd accept you to be the juror and judge on this matter either )

If we differ on execution at least we can agree on principle.

[yelped]

So go to their shuls & show them where they’ve sinned. Hocking away on DDF against their rabbis accomplishes nothing & has no place here.

Disagree. Many people are unaware of what's going on and that's because of people like you (nothing personal) that cover it up.

[Ergel]

No issur with something that is known to 3 people. Condemning negativity is ובערת הרע מקרבך.

The chofetz chaim is only matir if you are not doing it for pleasure
(not saying that's the case here - and if they are truly espousing avodah zarah they should be condemned from the mountains - just don't want people to think this is a blanket heter)

[m65]

It's all a pretense to shut down conversations they can't cope with

i dont have any problem having any conversation under the sun with u over a cup of coffee, or with osama bin laden for that matter either.
its just that to post here the type of trash u've been posting about someone who thousands of g-d fearing jews look up to for spiritual guidance (בצדק או שלא בצדק) is purely purposeful only for spreading hurt and bad feelings.
no smatter of posts on ddf are gonna change anyone's admiration or lack of it for the belzer rebbe.
but it sure will make ppl feel bad, and promote sinas chinam.

just to remove any doubts, i have nothing with belz, or any other chasidus for that matter

[TimT]

Disagree. Many people are unaware of what's going on and that's because of people like you (nothing personal) that cover it up.

Anyone spending enough time on the internet knows what’s going on as there are enough sites dedicated to this kind of stuff. It doesn’t belong on this forum.

[PlatinumGuy]

i dont have any problem having any conversation under the sun with u over a cup of coffee, or with osama bin laden for that matter either.
its just that to post here the type of trash u've been posting about someone who thousands of g-d fearing jews look up to for spiritual guidance (בצדק או שלא בצדק) is purely purposeful only for spreading hurt and bad feelings.
no smatter of posts on ddf are gonna change anyone's admiration or lack of it for the belzer rebbe.
but it sure will make ppl feel bad, and promote sinas chinam.

just to remove any doubts, i have nothing with belz, or any other chasidus for that matter

You're the one who is trashing me for malicious intent of spreading hate when it is the opposite of the truth. I do think even when my positions are seen as extremist, they enables others here to voice opinions they may otherwise be afraid to, and every comment influences people just that much to be a little more careful or even have הרהורי תשובה. Many people here openly admit to having first ridiculing Covid and safety precautions before coming to acknowledge the importance.

I also factually dispute the statement that I spoke trash about the Belzer Rov, the most I did was question the assertion of him as one of the Gedoli Yisroel, since even if it is true now, they were following him blindly before it could've possibly been true.

If posts here were having no effect they wouldn't bother anybody. It hurts because it's real.

[PlatinumGuy]

The chofetz chaim is only matir if you are not doing it for pleasure
(not saying that's the case here - and if they are truly espousing avodah zarah they should be condemned from the mountains - just don't want people to think this is a blanket heter)

Fair enough.

[m65]

You're the one who is trashing me for malicious intent of spreading hate when it is the opposite of the truth. I do think even when my positions are seen as extremist, they enables others here to voice opinions they may otherwise be afraid to, and every comment influences people just that much to be a little more careful or even have הרהורי תשובה. Many people here openly admit to having first ridiculing Covid and safety precautions before coming to acknowledge the importance.

I also factually dispute the statement that I spoke trash about the Belzer Rov, the most I did was question the assertion of him as one of the Gedoli Yisroel, since even if it is true now, they were following him blindly before it could've possibly been true.

If posts here were having no effect they wouldn't bother anybody. It hurts because it's real.

comparison to covid is weak, nobody's opinion on covid is more than one year old, definitely not rooted in generations of faith

if the belzer rov is gadol hador or not makes no difference, all belzers are so convinced, and very few if any outside belz think so. as with all rebbes of chasidusen.
no belzer is gonna be convinced by some anonymous poster on ddf, and noone will become a belzer from a positive post either.

 if u are trying to implicate that i was hurt by a post of yours, u cant be further off mark.

one last question, why do u feel the need to publicize ur negative opinion of a specific someone else on a forum where ppl who love him visit?