Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?

[iluv2travel]

If posts here were having no effect they wouldn't bother anybody. It hurts because it's real.

For me it has nothing to do with it being real. I have no idea if they're real or not. What bothers me is that a fellow Jew can discount and disparage Gedoilim because they disagree with some/all of their views and/or directives.

Our generation isn't זוכה to the level of Gedoilim there was in prior generations; the Gedoilim of our generation are on par with our level (which unfortunately has obviously fallen). However, they are all still considered the Gedoilim of our generation and should be respected as such regardless if they are Chassidish, Litvish, Yeshivish, or Other. And regardless if you agree with what they disseminate or not.

[PlatinumGuy]

comparison to covid is weak, nobody's opinion on covid is more than one year old, definitely not rooted in generations of faith

if the belzer rov is gadol hador or not makes no difference, all belzers are so convinced, and very few if any outside belz think so. as with all rebbes of chasidusen.
no belzer is gonna be convinced by some anonymous poster on ddf, and noone will become a belzer from a positive post either.

 if u are trying to implicate that i was hurt by a post of yours, u cant be further off mark.

one last question, why do u feel the need to publicize ur negative opinion of a specific someone else on a forum where ppl who love him visit?

A belzer may not be convinced 100%, but he may consider it 1%, and others are very likely to be convinced to attribute less value to his directives. The world isn't black or white, there is a lot of space in between. Even if it wasn't convincing people determining truth is of ultimate value.

There are actually pretty credible reports of members of renegade sects in Israel now who are very uncomfortable with the prevalent behavior and are clearly persuadable. I'm sure many in Belz are questioning things now.

 

For me it has nothing to do with it being real. I have no idea if they're real or not. What bothers me is that a fellow Jew can discount and disparage Gedoilim because they disagree with some/all of their views and/or directives.

Our generation isn't זוכה to the level of Gedoilim there was in prior generations; the Gedoilim of our generation are on par with our level (which unfortunately has obviously fallen). However, they are all still considered the Gedoilim of our generation and should be respected as such regardless if they are Chassidish, Litvish, Yeshivish, or Other. And regardless if you agree with what they disseminate or not.

'Daas Torah' is not carte blanche. קרח was a gadol in accordance to his generation yet those who followed his directives were punished.
Questioning something is the epitome of respect. Idolizing somebody blindly is disrespectful to yourself and by extension to those who lead you to do so.

[ExGingi]

For me it has nothing to do with it being real. I have no idea if they're real or not. What bothers me is that a fellow Jew can discount and disparage Gedoilim any other Jew because they disagree with some/all of their views and/or directives.

FTFY (just to expand the scope).

[PlatinumGuy]

FTFY (just to expand the scope).

I seem to recall just a few hours ago you were more than happy to criticize the Israeli government, are they not Jewish enough?

[ExGingi]

I seem to recall just a few hours ago you were more than happy to criticize the Israeli government, are they not Jewish enough?

I am really not interested in arguing with you (or with anyone else). Though I am sure you are aware of the difference between criticizing individuals vs criticizing a government (even if it's the Israeli government - as a side note, I was looking into purchasing a certain insurance product in Israel several months ago, and was looking into Ribis issues, based on my research the "cleanest" product was one backed 100% by Israeli government bonds).

[iluv2travel]

Questioning something is the epitome of respect. Idolizing somebody blindly is disrespectful to yourself and by extension to those who lead you to do so.

How do you define עשה לך רב? Do you follow a different Gadol for each area of your life according to what you agree with by each Gadol?  I should hope not. A person selects one Gadol and there may be times he doesn't agree with his mehalech, but most of the time he does and that's why he obviously chose to follow him. That doesn't mean following blindly because sometimes his Rav says or does things he might feel is questionable.

Like you said its not always black or white. Let's say your Rav says its ok to have schools open with masks, and social distancing,  and plexiglass between desks, but you disagree - you feel schools should be completely closed. So nobody is forcing you to send your kids to school. Just don't send. But you don't go on a public forum to disparage said Rav because he's your Rav and overall you agree with him.

(This has gone totally off track...)

[PlatinumGuy]

How do you define עשה לך רב? Do you follow a different Gadol for each area of your life according to what you agree with by each Gadol?  I should hope not. A person selects one Gadol and there may be times he doesn't agree with his mehalech, but most of the time he does and that's why he obviously chose to follow him. That doesn't mean following blindly because sometimes his Rav says or does things he might feel is questionable.

Like you said its not always black or white. Let's say your Rav says its ok to have schools open with masks, and social distancing,  and plexiglass between desks, but you disagree - you feel schools should be completely closed. So nobody is forcing you to send your kids to school. Just don't send. But you don't go on a public forum to disparage said Rav because he's your Rav and overall you agree with him.

(This has gone totally off track...)

I agree with most of that.

Last week there was an indoor wedding in Beni Brak with hundreds of people and loud music, and positive Covid carriers attended. All visible to the public while there is a strict lockdown, every school in Israel & most stores are closed, hundreds of thousands of people are in immediate subsistence distress, and the hospitals are saying about 15 people are dying every day solely because the system is overwhelmed (another 30-40/day from Covid).

Would you agree that's worthy of criticism?

[iluv2travel]

I agree with most of that.

Last week there was an indoor wedding in Beni Brak with hundreds of people and loud music, and positive Covid carriers attended. All visible to the public while there is a strict lockdown, every school in Israel & most stores are closed, hundreds of thousands of people are in immediate subsistence distress, and the hospitals are saying about 15 people are dying every day solely because the system is overwhelmed (another 30-40/day from Covid).

Would you agree that's worthy of criticism?

Yes, remember the Satmar Wedding thread? But there was no belittling of Gedoilim. As much as I disagree with what's going on and the fact that the COVID situation is heartbreaking, I still feel uncomfortable, to say the least with calling out the leaders of our generation and using negative language against them personally.

You can criticize that wedding and other behaviors that you feel flagrantly show disregard for human life but let's keep away from attacking individual Gedoilim. Just my 2 cents.

[TimT]

I agree with most of that.

Last week there was an indoor wedding in Beni Brak with hundreds of people and loud music, and positive Covid carriers attended. All visible to the public while there is a strict lockdown, every school in Israel & most stores are closed, hundreds of thousands of people are in immediate subsistence distress, and the hospitals are saying about 15 people are dying every day solely because the system is overwhelmed (another 30-40/day from Covid).

Would you agree that's worthy of criticism?

Whats the point ? Do you really feel there’s any תועלת ? Or just to badmouth ? Badmouthing another yid, or group of Yidden is always wrong (and leads to terrible things). I’m pretty sure everybody’s made up their mind already. They’re either for it or against it. Your criticism won’t change any minds. If you want to do something constructive & save lives go to the hall & beg people to save themselves & others.

[iluv2travel]

Whats the point ? Do you really feel there’s any תועלת ? Or just to badmouth ? Badmouthing another yid, or group of Yidden is always wrong. I’m pretty sure everybody’s made up their mind already. They’re either for it or against it. Your criticism won’t change any minds. If you want to do something constructive & save lives go to the hall & beg people to save themselves & others.

Correct. After having the same/similar conversations for months its pretty clear that disparaging has no point and no place. It certainly isn't getting anyone to change their mind or who their Rav/Rebbe is.

[PlatinumGuy]

Yes, remember the Satmar Wedding thread? But there was no belittling of Gedoilim. As much as I disagree with what's going on and the fact that the COVID situation is heartbreaking, I still feel uncomfortable, to say the least with calling out the leaders of our generation and using negative language against them personally.

You can criticize that wedding and other behaviors that you feel flagrantly show disregard for human life but let's keep away from attacking individual Gedoilim. Just my 2 cents.

I think you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. If you look back I think you'll find that (unlike others) I deliberately avoided passing judgment on the Belzer Rov and Vizinitzer Mendele themselves, the most I did was question the premise that they are Gedolim, and no, having thousands of disciples doesn't make one a gadol. If I spoke badly on any of them personally it was definitely not my intention.

My argument was more about people using the Rabbonim as an excuse to do what they would've done anyways, as I pointed out those who aren't wearing masks because their Rov told them not to are still here on the internet, while I'm sure the Rabbonim would rather they wear a mask and disconnect the internet.

[iluv2travel]

I think you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. If you look back I think you'll find that (unlike others) I deliberately avoided passing judgment on the Belzer Rov and Vizinitzer Mendele themselves, the most I did was question the premise that they are Gedolim, and no, having thousands of disciples doesn't make one a gadol. If I spoke badly on any of them personally it was definitely not my intention.

My argument was more about people using the Rabbonim as an excuse to do what they would've done anyways, as I pointed out those who aren't wearing masks because their Rov told them not to are still here on the internet, while I'm sure the Rabbonim would rather they wear a mask and disconnect the internet.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and I don't believe I did - I wasn't referencing what you did or didn't say.

I began my argument here in this this thread by saying that the road this is taking can lead to belittling and besmirching of Gedoilim. So continuing along that same line, I'm saying that we should keep away from attacks. As long as that's adhered to we're at least doing something partially right.  This was a general concept, not something you specifically or someone else said. Just wanted to clarify that.

[Danlover111]

Next....

[PlatinumGuy]

I’m pretty sure everybody’s made up their mind already. They’re either for it or against it.

That's really not true. Just 24h ago the Viznitz Rebbe publicly called for schools to open immediately, asked Hamodia to print his call, and said if anybody has a problem with it they should come to his home at xx address. Public pressure made him retract it and today his schools were closed.

As an individual my impact is minuscule, as a whole criticism is incredibly power. An ocean is made of tiny drops.

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and I don't believe I did - I wasn't referencing what you did or didn't say.

I began my argument here in this this thread by saying that the road this is taking can lead to belittling and besmirching of Gedoilim. So continuing along that same line, I'm saying that we should keep away from attacks. As long as that's adhered to we're at least doing something partially right.  This was a general concept, not something you specifically or someone else said. Just wanted to clarify that.

I appreciate and I agree with that, but I still believe the Rabbonim would be better served by their positions defended than by shoving any discussion under the rug. You only truly believe something is right when you allow yourself to consider the possibility it is wrong and know why it isn't.

[iluv2travel]

Next....

Ok. Agree.

[TimT]

That's really not true. Just 24h ago the Viznitz Rebbe publicly called for schools to open immediately, asked Hamodia to print his call, and said if anybody has a problem with it they should come to his home at xx address. Public pressure made him retract it and today his schools were closed.

As an individual my impact is minuscule, as a whole criticism is incredibly power. An ocean is made of tiny drops

On an anonymous online forum ? Keep on dreaming

[PlatinumGuy]

הודעת משרד הבריאות:


במעבדה המרכזית לנגיפים של משרד הבריאות, אותר באמצעות תהליך ריצוף,  וריאנט מלוס אנגלס. מהאדם המאומת לוריאנט זה  נדבקו 4 אנשים נוספים. הארוע נמצא בבדיקה.

משרד הבריאות ימשיך לעדכן בממצאים נוספים ככל שיהיו.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/local-covid-19-strain-found-in-over-one-third-of-los-angeles-patients/

On an anonymous online forum ? Keep on dreaming

At least admit you were wrong to say that everybody's mind is made up and there is no chance they will change it.

[iluv2travel]

I appreciate and I agree with that, but I still believe the Rabbonim would be better served by their positions defended than by shoving any discussion under the rug. You only truly believe something is right when you allow yourself to consider the possibility it is wrong and know why it isn't.

All fine and well. Even though I might find it useless to defend or disagree with the position of a Rav, one still needs to completely separate that agree/disagree argument from attacking that Rav or his followers (who actually do look at him as their Gadol even though you may feel otherwise). There's a fine line that one should be careful not to cross. Just reiterating the same concept yet again.

[TimT]

הודעת משרד הבריאות:


במעבדה המרכזית לנגיפים של משרד הבריאות, אותר באמצעות תהליך ריצוף,  וריאנט מלוס אנגלס. מהאדם המאומת לוריאנט זה  נדבקו 4 אנשים נוספים. הארוע נמצא בבדיקה.

משרד הבריאות ימשיך לעדכן בממצאים נוספים ככל שיהיו.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/local-covid-19-strain-found-in-over-one-third-of-los-angeles-patients/
At least admit you were wrong to say that everybody's mind is made up and there is no chance they will change it.

Over here we’re all made up & you badmouthing accomplishes zero & doesn’t change any minds. And you know this. Bring all the science & dr’s quotes, כל הכבוד. But badmouthing people is always wrong.
Really wish the mods were more forceful with this.

[AsherO]

הודעת משרד הבריאות:


במעבדה המרכזית לנגיפים של משרד הבריאות, אותר באמצעות תהליך ריצוף,  וריאנט מלוס אנגלס. מהאדם המאומת לוריאנט זה  נדבקו 4 אנשים נוספים. הארוע נמצא בבדיקה.

משרד הבריאות ימשיך לעדכן בממצאים נוספים ככל שיהיו.

https://www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/local-covid-19-strain-found-in-over-one-third-of-los-angeles-patients/
At least admit you were wrong to say that everybody's mind is made up and there is no chance they will change it.

This business with variants is becoming stupid. Unless there’s significant evidence that the particular variant is more contagious and/or more deadly then it’s a non-starter. Viruses mutate and that’s normal. Just because infections in 1/3 of Los Angeles cases has a certain commonality, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything about the mutation being more transmissible.