Author Topic: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?  (Read 4969 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2021, 05:49:39 PM »
Just because infections in 1/3 of Los Angeles cases has a certain commonality, that doesnít necessarily mean anything about the mutation being more transmissible.
I think it does if it happens quickly enough. They said the UK variant was more transmissible because it took up a larger portion of cases quicker than otherwise anticipated. It's now evident it's also more deadly.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline AsherO

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2021, 05:50:59 PM »
I think it does if it happens quickly enough. They said the UK variant was more transmissible because it took up a larger portion of cases quicker than otherwise anticipated. It's now evident it's also more deadly.

Iím not saying that isnít the case here, all Iím saying is it isnít necessarily the case and an alert (for awareness) doesnít need to be an alarm (for panic/extreme reaction).

What Iím saying is that, for example, in February/March the US spread was mostly an Italian variant. It could very well be that this variant spreads quicker, but it could also have to do with travel patterns, and exposure and timing at key junction points in the spread (e.g someone shedding heavily at an event with many people).

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2021, 05:53:51 PM »
Over here weíre all made up & you badmouthing accomplishes zero & doesnít change any minds. And you know this.
Strongly disagree. If the Visnitz Rebbe himself changed his mind, people here can change their mind. My opinion evolved on many topics from information & arguments here. Just because your mind is made up is in no way indicative of others. Speak for yourself and don't try to impose your beliefs on us when you can't convince us of them.

Iím not saying that isnít the case here, all Iím saying is it isnít necessarily the case and an alert (for awareness) doesnít need to be an alarm (for panic/extreme reaction).
I agree with that although I think 1/3 of cases in LA is indicative of higher transmission. In general I wouldn't panic because I think if this virus would get deadlier less people will die, it's the low morbidity that's allowing it to spread uncheck and go on perpetually.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline AsherO

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2021, 05:55:10 PM »

I agree with that although I think 1/3 of cases in LA is indicative of higher transmission. In general I wouldn't panic because I think if this virus would get deadlier less people will die, it's the low morbidity that's allowing it to spread uncheck and go on perpetually.

Greater transmissibility doesnít necessarily mean the mitigation is deadlier.

Also, just cause transmissibility increase makes for more deaths than morbidity increase, that doesnít mean a deadlier variant will be better. If it spreads faster and is deadlier more people will die due to both factors.

Online TimT

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2021, 06:03:20 PM »
Strongly disagree. If the Visnitz Rebbe himself changed his mind, people here can change their mind. My opinion evolved on many topics from information & arguments here. Just because your mind is made up is in no way indicative of others. Speak for yourself and don't try to impose your beliefs on us when you can't convince us of them.
The only belief of mine you know of on this matter is that badmouthing another is wrong, so cut the cr*p.
Science & drís might change minds. Talking against another yid doesnít change anyoneís minds & only brings calamities upon Klal Yisroel.
Iím done here so go ahead & have the last word.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2021, 06:15:49 PM »
The only belief of mine you know of on this matter is that badmouthing another is wrong, so cut the cr*p.
Science & drís might change minds. Talking against another yid doesnít change anyoneís minds & only brings calamities upon Klal Yisroel.
If I was actually badmouthing somebody, maybe you'd have a point. The problem is you're just calling it bad mouthing to discredit & silence opinions you don't agree with.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2021, 06:58:32 PM »
🤷‍♂️ I like to think as myself as a pretty tolerant person, but I don't see what the heter is to stay quiet and look the other way at someone who is planting Avoida Zara within our midst.

Maybe the Heter is based on the fact the not one of the Gedolei Yisroel decided to do as you see fit?

Never mind besmirching the name of one specific Gadol; who do you think you are, and why do you think you are smarter than all the other Gedolei Yisroel that don't seem to feel the need to do what you are doing?

Offline yelped

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2021, 07:00:18 PM »
Maybe the Heter is based on the fact the not one of the Gedolei Yisroel decided to do as you see fit?

Never mind besmirching the name of one specific Gadol; who do you think you are, and why do you think you are smarter than all the other Gedolei Yisroel that don't seem to feel the need to do what you are doing?
That's my question. Am I not informed? Or they just hope that he will disappear? Does anyone dispute that what he and his Chassidim are doing is pure Avoda Zarah? I don't blame him as much, he nebech very obviously (and publicly) suffered from a mental attack, but what is the excuse for his Chassidim?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2021, 07:01:21 PM »
who do you think you are, and why do you think you are smarter than all the other Gedolei Yisroel that don't seem to feel the need to do what you are doing?
Good thing נחשון בן עמינדב and Pinchas didn't use that logic.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online th0306

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2021, 07:05:03 PM »
That's my question. Am I not informed? Or they just hope that he will disappear? Does anyone dispute that what he and his Chassidim are doing is pure Avoda Zarah? I don't blame him as much, he nebech very obviously (and publicly) suffered from a mental attack, but what is the excuse for his Chassidim?

I think the lack of response from any Gedolei Yisroel says a lot...

Online th0306

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2021, 07:07:28 PM »
Good thing נחשון בן עמינדב and Pinchas didn't use that logic.

It seems you are missing the basics of chinuch for הכנעה to Gedolei Yisroel. It's not something that can be taught to you on a public forum. It takes Chinuch from a young age....

Good Luck!

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2021, 07:07:28 PM »
Good thing נחשון בן עמינדב and Pinchas didn't use that logic.
Not the case for either.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2021, 07:08:18 PM »
Greater transmissibility doesnít necessarily mean the mitigation is deadlier.

Can you please explain this? I'm not sure I understand?

Quote
Also, just cause transmissibility increase makes for more deaths than morbidity increase, that doesnít mean a deadlier variant will be better. If it spreads faster and is deadlier more people will die due to both factors.

Is it possible that these variants don't have higher transmission rates per se, but because the virus overall is just so prevalent by now that it just seems that way?

Meaning to say that for example 6 months ago, let's say 10k ppl had variant A, but now a million ppl have variant B, obviously a lot more ppl are going to catch variant B, right? And 100 ppl died of variant A, while 10,000 ppl died of B, so obviously 10,000 is way more than 100, but both are 1% of the total cases so can we still say B deadlier?

I just made up these numbers to ask my question, I didn't take them from anywhere.  I just want to understand how increased transmissibility of a particular variant and also increased death can be very clearly proven.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2021, 07:11:02 PM »
Can you please explain this? I'm not sure I understand?

Is it possible that these variants don't have higher transmission rates per se, but because the virus overall is just so prevalent by now that it just seems that way?

Meaning to say that for example 6 months ago, let's say 10k ppl had variant A, but now a million ppl have variant B, obviously a lot more ppl are going to catch variant B, right? And 100 ppl died of variant A, while 10,000 ppl died of B, so obviously 10,000 is way more than 100, but both are 1% of the total cases so can we still say B deadlier?

I just made up these numbers to ask my question, I didn't take them from anywhere.  I just want to understand how increased transmissibility of a particular variant and also increased death can be very clearly proven.

All good questions to which I donít have the answers. I think Iím inclined to agree with you, I was responding to PlatinumGuy, see his posts that I quoted and was addressing.

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2021, 07:14:34 PM »
All good questions to which I donít have the answers. I think Iím inclined to agree with you, I was responding to PlatinumGuy, see his posts that I quoted and was addressing.

Yes, I was following the conversation. I was just wondering about this. I guess time will tell us the answers like it does for a lot of other things in life. Thanks.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2021, 07:16:20 PM »
It seems you are missing the basics of chinuch for הכנעה to Gedolei Yisroel. It's not something that can be taught to you on a public forum. It takes Chinuch from a young age....

Good Luck!
Thank god I am missing the Chinuch of being מכניע the Torah to people on the mere basis of them having followers. Look into what's actually going on there. Whether or not something is Avoda Zara has little to do with הכנעה or gedolei Yisroel, and saying that it does is the ultimate Kefira.

Meaning to say that for example 6 months ago, let's say 10k ppl had variant A, but now a million ppl have variant B, obviously a lot more ppl are going to catch variant B, right? And 100 ppl died of variant A, while 10,000 ppl died of B, so obviously 10,000 is way more than 100, but both are 1% of the total cases so can we still say B deadlier?
That's true, the way you can tell is if you know that in January 10,000 had Covid, and only 500 of them were x variant, and by February 50,000 have it and 30,000 of them have that variant. That means X variant is transmitting faster than the other one.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline iluv2travel

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2021, 07:50:47 PM »
That's true, the way you can tell is if you know that in January 10,000 had Covid, and only 500 of them were x variant, and by February 50,000 have it and 30,000 of them have that variant. That means X variant is transmitting faster than the other one.

Ok, that makes sense. But are they checking each and every test now for its variant to be able to show clear data?

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2021, 07:52:43 PM »
That's my question. Am I not informed? Or they just hope that he will disappear? Does anyone dispute that what he and his Chassidim are doing is pure Avoda Zarah? I don't blame him as much, he nebech very obviously (and publicly) suffered from a mental attack, but what is the excuse for his Chassidim?
Obviously your second part answers the question you keep on asking. And that's precisely the case here, when something is obvious, it's... obvious, and it frees others to point it out.
(And in case you're that concerned, since they brought the situation under control, progress has been made with a more normalized language.)

Offline yelped

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2021, 08:06:06 PM »
Obviously your second part answers the question you keep on asking. And that's precisely the case here, when something is obvious, it's... obvious, and it frees others to point it out.
(And in case you're that concerned, since they brought the situation under control, progress has been made with a more normalized language.)
I don't really understand what you're saying, but I guess that's because I'm not really familiar about what's going on. I just saw a few sheets that were sent home and I was horrified. I don't really keep up with all the goings on in the Chassideshe (or Yeshivish) world, but this was shocking to me, and I was expressing my surprise that it wasn't to others.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2021, 08:09:05 PM »
Ok, that makes sense. But are they checking each and every test now for its variant to be able to show clear data?
The UK was sequencing a large sample before this began, which is how they found it. I don't know the exact stats for LA and Israel but there is more emphasis on sequencing now and IINM Biden is planing on allocating more Federal $ for it.

And that's precisely the case here, when something is obvious, it's... obvious, and it frees others to point it out.
That was my impression as well but ironically while you're saying it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be said, a few posts ago somebody is arguing it's so unfathomable that the possibility cannot even be considered.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים