Author Topic: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?  (Read 11495 times)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2021, 08:14:20 PM »
I don't really understand what you're saying, but I guess that's because I'm not really familiar about what's going on. I just saw a few sheets that were sent home and I was horrified. I don't really keep up with all the goings on in the Chassideshe (or Yeshivish) world, but this was shocking to me, and I was expressing my surprise that it wasn't to others.

I have no idea about anything going on in viznitz, but I do have experience in people misunderstanding something they see because they are not familiar with the culture or language of those who wrote it. Please keep that in mind before accusing thousands of frumme yidden of serving avodah zarah

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2021, 08:15:17 PM »
I have no idea about anything going on in viznitz, but I do have experience in people misunderstanding something they see because they are not familiar with the culture or language of those who wrote it. Please keep that in mind before accusing thousands of frumme yidden of serving avodah zarah
Oh, I definitely stand by what I said, and I am sure that if you see what I saw you would say the same.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2021, 08:16:23 PM »
I have no idea about anything going on in viznitz, but I do have experience in people misunderstanding something they see because they are not familiar with the culture or language of those who wrote it. Please keep that in mind before accusing thousands of frumme yidden of serving avodah zarah
They are likely תינוקות שנשבו even if it's true.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2021, 09:28:09 PM »
@PlatinumGuy I just want to make sure I understand correctly You are sitting on this forums a whole day and hope persuade people that would have follow advice from lets say the belzer rabbi and you are going to make them change with your arguments?? I want to get it clear....

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2021, 09:31:07 PM »
I am sure had @PlatinumGuy been by yetzias mitzrayim he would have said for his fellow yidden they should not follow blindly moshe and take the sheep and hold it by their bed for a few days and then slaughter it and get all the Egyptians angry to a stage of real pikiuch nefesh...he would have saved us all as he would have had arguments on arguments and he would have convinced at least 1% of the yidden not to follow moshe blindly and they would have been saved from the angry looks of the Egyptians

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2021, 09:31:50 PM »
 (דברים יז, יא): "לא תסור מן התורה אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל" - "אפילו מראים בעיניך על שמאל שהוא ימין ועל ימין שהוא שמאל - שמע" (ומובא ברש"י שם

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2021, 09:32:48 PM »
But this pusik in the torah is only after you decide who is a gudol and then you follow what he says but once he says something that does not make sense to you then he is not a gudol and then this pusik is not relevant anymore....

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2021, 09:34:26 PM »
Good thing נחשון בן עמינדב and Pinchas didn't use that logic.
So what did nachshoin do He followed moshe blindly in to the water, He followed a gudol blindly in to the water. you would have .....
very very sad

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2021, 09:40:55 PM »
Happy to see all your stupid comments are gone. I really hope you alone erased it and not by some mods. I wouldnt want to know that a member hear can express such ugly words without have guilty feeling afterwards

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2021, 09:41:18 PM »
I am sure had @PlatinumGuy been by yetzias mitzrayim he would have said for his fellow yidden they should not follow blindly moshe and take the sheep and hold it by their bed for a few days and then slaughter it and get all the Egyptians angry to a stage of real pikiuch nefesh...he would have saved us all as he would have had arguments on arguments and he would have convinced at least 1% of the yidden not to follow moshe blindly and they would have been saved from the angry looks of the Egyptians
The Jews in Mitzrayim questioned Moshe many times and did not believe him until he proved himself to be a messenger of Hashem, and there was no Torah at the time for him to overrule. It is the exact opposite of the blind obedience you are calling for. You should follow their example and question your leaders.

(דברים יז, יא): "לא תסור מן התורה אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל" - "אפילו מראים בעיניך על שמאל שהוא ימין ועל ימין שהוא שמאל - שמע" (ומובא ברש"י שם
וְעָשִׂיתָ עַל פִּי הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ מִן הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר ה' וְשָׁמַרְתָּ לַעֲשׂוֹת כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ.
עַל פִּי הַתּוֹרָה אֲשֶׁר יוֹרוּךָ וְעַל הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר יֹאמְרוּ לְךָ תַּעֲשֶׂה, לֹא תָסוּר מִן הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר יַגִּידוּ לְךָ יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאל.

For those who actually care what the Torah says, according to most Rishonim that Pasuk is referring to Sanhedrin while they are present in לשכת הגזית , and even then the Yerushalmi also says יכול אם יאמרו לך על ימין שהוא שמאל ועל שמאל שהוא ימין תשמע להם? תלמוד לומר: ימין ושמאל, and the Rambam paskens so explicitly. Yes you have to listen to Gedolim, but there are still boundaries. It is possible they instruct incorrectly, including Avoda Zara, and that has happened many times throughout history including J- himself.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2021, 09:47:23 PM »
So what did nachshoin do He followed moshe blindly in to the water, He followed a gudol blindly in to the water.
Actually, נחשון jumped ahead of Moshe, not follow him.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2021, 09:50:30 PM »
You quote from the torah and yet all you do is bash rabbanim and express support for the all of the moral degenerates that the torah assurs. Why don’t you just go to a not frum website where your options will be appreciated and leave us alone !!!

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2021, 09:55:30 PM »
You quote from the torah and yet all you do is bash rabbanim and express support for the all of the moral degenerates that the torah assurs. Why don’t you just go to a not frum website where your options will be appreciated and leave us alone !!!
Why don't you argue your viewpoint instead of attacking the messenger?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2021, 10:23:08 PM »
Yes you have to listen to Gedolim,.... including J- himself.


WHOA!
 :o :o :o :o :o
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2021, 10:23:55 PM »
Actually, נחשון jumped ahead of Moshe, not follow him.
But was listening to the instructions of Moshe
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2021, 10:24:29 PM »
They are likely תינוקות שנשבו even if it's true.
And if so?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2021, 10:25:26 PM »
WHOA!
 :o :o :o :o :o
Lol. כשהם יורדים, יורדים עד התהום...

But was listening to the instructions of Moshe
Yes that is true

And if so?
Its not half as bad saying thousand of Yidden are doing it intentionally Chas Veshalom.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2021, 10:28:17 PM »
Lol. כשהם יורדים, יורדים עד התהום...

I still take very strong exception to including him in that title at any point.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online yelped

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2021, 10:39:14 PM »
I still take very strong exception to including him in that title at any point.
100%. I don't think he meant that part.

Offline shulemw

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2021, 10:40:16 PM »
So nachason listened to instructions from moshe or he did it before moshe said...?