Author Topic: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?  (Read 11485 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2021, 10:43:07 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2021, 10:49:47 PM »
I still take very strong exception to including him in that title at any point.
My post was written after mistakenly confusing אלישע בן אבויה, and I appreciate that you prompted me to research it and correct my mistake, but it is still historically accurate according to some understandings of סנהדרין ק״ז ע״ב Vd"l. Of course the point stands true regardless of the example.
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Offline mushkovits

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2021, 12:52:05 AM »
I am sure had @PlatinumGuy been by yetzias mitzrayim he would have said for his fellow yidden they should not follow blindly moshe and take the sheep and hold it by their bed for a few days and then slaughter it and get all the Egyptians angry to a stage of real pikiuch nefesh...he would have saved us all as he would have had arguments on arguments and he would have convinced at least 1% of the yidden not to follow moshe blindly and they would have been saved from the angry looks of the Egyptians
I think prior to answering the question about questioning, we have to tackle the bigger question which is how does someone become a gadol/rebbe. With all due respect having a following doesn’t make someone a rabbi or having “daas Torah” .
Not to be able to question someone simply because he has a following?!?! Absurd and anti Torah! Why can an official chasidus do what it wants without being questioned and condemned but when it comes to that Lev Tahor cult yoy all agree we can question,disparage and bash.

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2021, 01:01:40 AM »
I think prior to answering the question about questioning, we have to tackle the bigger question which is how does someone become a gadol/rebbe. With all due respect having a following doesn’t make someone a rabbi or having “daas Torah” .
Not to be able to question someone simply because he has a following?!?! Absurd and anti Torah! Why can an official chasidus do what it wants without being questioned and condemned but when it comes to that Lev Tahor cult yoy all agree we can question,disparage and bash.
Very true. I actually think many here would argue it is wrong to condemn Lev Tahor as well.

In general the conversation needs to be separated between the hypothetical possibility that Rabbi X (mine or yours) can potentially be wrong and even A"Z Chas Veshalom, which is מיסודי הדת, and how to determine whether or not that is the case with any given directive or action (the gold standard would be a majority of Sanhedrin but even that isn't infallible), and by extension whether or not that is the case with the different Rabbis discussed here (on which I tried not to opine expressly).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 01:06:13 AM by PlatinumGuy »
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2021, 01:46:57 AM »
I have no idea how this conversation started or what is being spoken about, but I think I have a simple solution. Call the leaders/groups in question Chabad and then you can disparage them and call them ovdei A"Z without issue.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #105 on: January 25, 2021, 01:49:06 AM »
I have no idea how this conversation started or what is being spoken about, but I think I have a simple solution. Call the leaders/groups in question Chabad and then you can disparage them and call them ovdei A"Z without issue.

Time to update your signature, it's also needed during the night.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #106 on: January 25, 2021, 03:14:31 AM »
Rambam in Eigres Techias Hameisim:

איוב וצופר ובלדד ואליפז ואליהוא כולם אצלנו נביאים ואף על פי שאינם מישראל וכן חנניה בן עזור נביא שקר ואף על פי שהוא מישראל אבל נאמין בנביא או נכחישהו מצד נבואתו ולא מצד יחוסו...

אבל האמננו בו לפי ששמענו הדבר כמו ששמע הוא ובזה האמננו בו אמונה שלמה מקויימת עד עולם שנאמר (שמות י"ט ט') וגם בך יאמינו לעולם ואנחנו בעניין זה עם משה רבינו כמו שני עדים שהעידו שראו שום דבר שכל אחד מהם יודע בוודאי שהוא אמת מה שיעיד חברו ואמתות דברו ואינם צריכים להביא על דבריהם ראיה בפני המון העם וכן הדבר בנו אנחנו עדת ישראל ידענו אמתות משה רבינו לפי שראינוהו במעמד הר
סיני בשעת הדבור

Moshe is the diametric opposite of blind obedience. If you only believe in Moshe because it is forbidden to question if he was right, you’re denying a cornerstone of Jewish belief. Moshe is Moshe because it was proven beyond any possible doubt that it’s impossible he was wrong. He is the epitome of informed knowledge.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2021, 09:18:10 AM »
Rambam in Eigres Techias Hameisim:

איוב וצופר ובלדד ואליפז ואליהוא כולם אצלנו נביאים ואף על פי שאינם מישראל וכן חנניה בן עזור נביא שקר ואף על פי שהוא מישראל אבל נאמין בנביא או נכחישהו מצד נבואתו ולא מצד יחוסו...

אבל האמננו בו לפי ששמענו הדבר כמו ששמע הוא ובזה האמננו בו אמונה שלמה מקויימת עד עולם שנאמר (שמות י"ט ט') וגם בך יאמינו לעולם ואנחנו בעניין זה עם משה רבינו כמו שני עדים שהעידו שראו שום דבר שכל אחד מהם יודע בוודאי שהוא אמת מה שיעיד חברו ואמתות דברו ואינם צריכים להביא על דבריהם ראיה בפני המון העם וכן הדבר בנו אנחנו עדת ישראל ידענו אמתות משה רבינו לפי שראינוהו במעמד הר
סיני בשעת הדבור

Moshe is the diametric opposite of blind obedience. If you only believe in Moshe because it is forbidden to question if he was right, you’re denying a cornerstone of Jewish belief. Moshe is Moshe because it was proven beyond any possible doubt that it’s impossible he was wrong. He is the epitome of informed knowledge.
It's in אגרת תימן.

שבתי צבי also had tens of thousands of followers in his time. And just 70 years ago almost all Jews followed and believed that Zionism is an אתחלתא דגאולה. As I noted earlier, the derech was always to check if a said Manhig's actions reconsiles completely with the Torah.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2021, 10:36:29 AM »
And just 70 years ago almost all Jews followed and believed that Zionism is an אתחלתא דגאולה.

There are many G-d fearing Jews who still believe this. No reason to put them in the same basket as Sabbateans.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2021, 10:50:59 AM »
There are many G-d fearing Jews who still believe this. No reason to put them in the same basket as Sabbateans.
I'm aware, my point is that the mere fact that something is believed and followed by the masses doesn't necessarily give it any veracity, certainly not from a Torah viewpoint.
(And btw, the Sabbateans were also G-d fearing Jews, at least those who dropped him when he converted to Islam)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2021, 11:15:38 AM »
I'm aware, my point is that the mere fact that something is believed and followed by the masses doesn't necessarily give it any veracity, certainly not from a Torah viewpoint.
(And btw, the Sabbateans were also G-d fearing Jews, at least those who dropped him when he converted to Islam)

Just because people don't share your hashkafah doesn't make them (or their Torah viewpoint) untrue or wrong. I'm going to object again to you clumping those who believe that the founding of the State of Israel was the beginning of the redemptive process with Sabbateans. The former isn't my hashkafah either, but I respect it and those who follow it.
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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny On COVID Positions?
« Reply #111 on: January 25, 2021, 01:38:22 PM »
Just because people don't share your hashkafah doesn't make them (or their Torah viewpoint) untrue or wrong. I'm going to object again to you clumping those who believe that the founding of the State of Israel was the beginning of the redemptive process with Sabbateans. The former isn't my hashkafah either, but I respect it and those who follow it.
He isn't attempting to argue their belief is wrong. He is saying the existence of followers in no way proves that their belief isn't wrong.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?
« Reply #112 on: January 25, 2021, 02:38:16 PM »
He isn't attempting to argue their belief is wrong. He is saying the existence of followers in no way proves that their belief isn't wrong.

And I’m arguing that the beliefs of religious zionists shouldn’t be bunched together with the beliefs of Sabbateans...

It’s true, followers doesn’t prove veracity, I don’t disagree.
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Offline shabbosabba

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2021, 03:08:42 PM »
The Torah is old fashioned. Nowadays if you wear black and white, call yourself a Rabbi, and eat some kugel, anything you do or say is sacrosanct and any opposition is nazi style antisemitism.
Did I walk into the reform judaism thread? You want to claim that it isn't the derech haTorah? Fine. That's a separate debate. But the Torah is not old fashioned.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #114 on: January 25, 2021, 03:26:44 PM »
Did I walk into the reform judaism thread? You want to claim that it isn't the derech haTorah? Fine. That's a separate debate. But the Torah is not old fashioned.
He was sarcastic

Offline gozalim

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?
« Reply #115 on: January 25, 2021, 04:07:18 PM »

Offline gozalim

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?
« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2021, 04:09:45 PM »
@AsherO I'd say that they are categorically incorrect from Torah's position, it's still not right to clump them with sabbateans

Offline mushkovits

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Re: Should Rabanim Be Open To Scrutiny?
« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2021, 04:22:21 PM »
ironically, the most likely candidate for the the story he's referring to is 5708

Did you see what that site is about?
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: The current state of COVID-19 in Israel
« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2021, 04:26:12 PM »
Here is the post you should link to:
http://yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=230
@PlatinumGuy and team just as you said!
Nice one thank you. I shall use that one on Purim iyh. (Here’s something positive that came about from this thread, take that haters)
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