Matisyahu Shaves Beard...

[churnbabychurn]

Didn't Shteinzaltz grow up on a kibbutz where they ate on yom kippur? Or is that a myth?

he was born and raised totally secular. He would be exhibit A for the case I am making. TY

[MC]

I therefore personally am not at all surprised when I hear of a baal teshuva who "lost his inspiration".

I agree 10000%. It's part of why the Kiruv organization I work for so strongly encourages BTs to go to yeshiva or seminary for a few years. It does something that no crash course could ever do. And the numbers speak for themselves. (That being said, there are still a large number of BTs who end up dropping it all, but that's a different discussion).
The key difference here, to me at least, is the publicity factor. Matisyahu used to stand for something in the celebrity world. He was the religious singer who wore a yarmulka and made brachos on stage. And I'm afraid, most of the outside world still sees him as that, even though at this point he is such a terrible misrepresentation of the frum world.

[aygart]

Il explain my sentiment.

Here is a shocking fact: A very large percentage of non FFB baalei teshuva are only "maaminm ve'inom maaminim". This is due to the fact that the BT movement today entails going through a quick Judaism 101 crash course that is supposed to somehow quickly erase a lifetime of kefira. Kefira that they have absorbed from teachers, college, parents and society. They get inspired and join our club... It is very rare to find a baal teshuva who has fully accepted emuna peshuta on the same level as a frum child who was spoon fed emuna from day one. How many of them have the same appreciation for chazal as the lucky few who absorbed and lived these concepts their whole life?  Matter of fact, most of the recent famous "Frum" kofrim, authors and science/torah reconcilers are balei teshuva....

I therefore personally am not at all surprised when I hear of a baal teshuva who "lost his inspiration".


Now, I am in no way dismissing yidden who sacrificed their entire life to become baalei teshuva. Bemokom shbaalei teshuva omdim etc.  It is extremely difficult (and almost impossible unless they are in a yeshiva for many years) for someone who was brought up on kefira to become a deep true maamin.

The concern of shema yachzir l'suro has been a concern regarding baalei tshuva and geirim from time immemorial and is discussed in numerous places in shas. IIRC the simple explanation in rishonim is since ta'amu ta'am chet. With this reasoning it is certainly no surprise that the yetzer haros which abound in the non-jewish entertainment culture would "chap ois" a ba'al tshuva who would be on fragile ground to start off with.

[aygart]

I agree 10000%. It's part of why the Kiruv organization I work for so strongly encourages BTs to go to yeshiva or seminary for a few years. It does something that no crash course could ever do. And the numbers speak for themselves. (That being said, there are still a large number of BTs who end up dropping it all, but that's a different discussion).
The key difference here, to me at least, is the publicity factor. Matisyahu used to stand for something in the celebrity world. He was the religious singer who wore a yarmulka and made brachos on stage. And I'm afraid, most of the outside world still sees him as that, even though at this point he is such a terrible misrepresentation of the frum world.

This is also part of the basis for the disagreement in methodology between 2 yeshivos for Baalei tshuva in Monsey with one feeling they are better off staying within their own BT culture and one feeling that it is best to send them out to mainstream yeshivos as much as possible.

[elit]

Il explain my sentiment.

Here is a shocking fact: A very large percentage of non FFB baalei teshuva are only "maaminm ve'inom maaminim". This is due to the fact that the BT movement today entails going through a quick Judaism 101 crash course that is supposed to somehow quickly erase a lifetime of kefira. Kefira that they have absorbed from teachers, college, parents and society. They get inspired and join our club... It is very rare to find a baal teshuva who has fully accepted emuna peshuta on the same level as a frum child who was spoon fed emuna from day one. How many of them have the same appreciation for chazal as the lucky few who absorbed and lived these concepts their whole life?  Matter of fact, most of the recent famous "Frum" kofrim, authors and science/torah reconcilers are balei teshuva....

I therefore personally am not at all surprised when I hear of a baal teshuva who "lost his inspiration".


Now, I am in no way dismissing yidden who sacrificed their entire life to become baalei teshuva. Bemokom shbaalei teshuva omdim etc.  It is extremely difficult (and almost impossible unless they are in a yeshiva for many years) for someone who was brought up on kefira to become a deep true maamin.

Just curious how many BTs do you know personally?

[elit]

Il explain my sentiment.

Here is a shocking fact: A very large percentage of non FFB baalei teshuva are only "maaminm ve'inom maaminim". This is due to the fact that the BT movement today entails going through a quick Judaism 101 crash course that is supposed to somehow quickly erase a lifetime of kefira. Kefira that they have absorbed from teachers, college, parents and society. They get inspired and join our club... It is very rare to find a baal teshuva who has fully accepted emuna peshuta on the same level as a frum child who was spoon fed emuna from day one. How many of them have the same appreciation for chazal as the lucky few who absorbed and lived these concepts their whole life?  Matter of fact, most of the recent famous "Frum" kofrim, authors and science/torah reconcilers are balei teshuva....

I therefore personally am not at all surprised when I hear of a baal teshuva who "lost his inspiration".


Now, I am in no way dismissing yidden who sacrificed their entire life to become baalei teshuva. Bemokom shbaalei teshuva omdim etc.  It is extremely difficult (and almost impossible unless they are in a yeshiva for many years) for someone who was brought up on kefira to become a deep true maamin.

And where is the source for your fact?

[avremie]

As Matter of fact, most of the recent famous "Frum" kofrim, authors and science/torah reconcilers are balei teshuva

I'm don't understand why people who try to reconcile Torah and science are kofrim unless you believe that we should throw all science out the window.
I would also add there is a difference between a kofer and kfira.

[Freddie]

This is also part of the basis for the disagreement in methodology between 2 yeshivos for Baalei tshuva in Monsey with one feeling they are better off staying within their own BT culture and one feeling that it is best to send them out to mainstream yeshivos as much as possible.

BT culture... ugh. Mainstreaming is definitely the way to go.

[aygart]

BT culture... ugh. Mainstreaming is definitely the way to go.

There is always some level of mainstreaming. Their kids will go to "regular" schools etc. By them staying in the BT yeshiva and its culture long term they have a support system which caters to their specific needs.

[thaber]

I would venture that in this particular case it's not sytemic of BT's, more a personal thing. as he said in the article linked to previously:

"There was a time in my life when I was extremely pious and moralistic. I wouldn't wear glasses on the street so I couldn't see billboards of women. I didn't talk or touch a woman for four or five years till I was married. I didn't touch drugs.
"I was living this life in environments where all those things were readily available and being pushed on me and I was just really focused on what I thought was important.
"But eventually I did become affected by the things around me. It's a slippery slope. You let down that wall and say, 'I don't want to not be able to go out to dinner with my friends and family; I don't want to have to go straight home after the show or be reading my Torah on the way to the show.' I want to take part in the world." 

My point being - no one, FFB or BT, can be part of a fan culture, where literally every possible vice is being thrown at you, and not be influenced. This is true not only of yidden,

[churnbabychurn]

Which brings up the elephant in the room; if he was indeed really a frum person, why did he still perform and live the pop star culture? Was his yidishkeit not important enough for him to give it up?

[aygart]

Which brings up the elephant in the room; if he was indeed really a frum person, why did he still perform and live the pop star culture? Was his yidishkeit not important enough for him to give it up?

Its called yetzer hara

[Dan]

Which brings up the elephant in the room; if he was indeed really a frum person, why did he still perform and live the pop star culture? Was his yidishkeit not important enough for him to give it up?

When you're given an incredible talent do you have the right to waste it?
Should Tamir Goodman have given up basketball or did he try to go about it with his yarmulkah and tzitzes flying in an inspiring kiddush hashem?

For the better part of a decade Matisyahu inspired jews and non-jews alike.  Then he got himself a guru who told him he was in a cult called chabad and he changed chassidus several times before succumbing to the dark side of pop culture.

Ultimately it's a really tough nisayon for anyone to be in.

[aygart]

When you're given an incredible talent do you have the right to waste it?
Should Tamir Goodman have given up basketball or did he try to go about it with his yarmulkah and tzitzes flying in an inspiring kiddush hashem?

For the better part of a decade Matisyahu inspired jews and non-jews alike.  Then he got himself a guru who told him he was in a cult called chabad and he changed chassidus several times before succumbing to the dark side of pop culture.

He could have used the talent in more kosher ways.

[Dan]

He could have used the talent in more kosher ways.

True. Though I don't pretend to know the amount of people he inspired when his album was #4 on billboard and songs like KWAC and One Day were everywhere.
I remember flying JetBlue and his KWAC music video was playing on the default channel on LiveTV.  Have pics of it somewhere.

I just think it's sad that he couldn't keep it together as he was able to for an impressive amount of time.

[churnbabychurn]

He could have used the talent in more kosher ways.

[Dan]

He could have used the talent in more kosher ways.

And even in more kosher settings, guys like Lipa still have huge nisyonos.

Huge talent comes with that.  The trick is to pull it off while remaining humble and a yiras shamayim.

[sguitarist18]

When you're given an incredible talent do you have the right to waste it?
Should Tamir Goodman have given up basketball or did he try to go about it with his yarmulkah and tzitzes flying in an inspiring kiddush hashem?

For the better part of a decade Matisyahu inspired jews and non-jews alike.  Then he got himself a guru who told him he was in a cult called chabad and he changed chassidus several times before succumbing to the dark side of pop culture.

Ultimately it's a really tough nisayon for anyone to be in.

I agree that talent should not be wasted, but how one goes about demonstrating those talents is up for interpretation. Being part of the pop culture scene, one could argue, is a lot worse than being a basketball player. And even as a reggae star, there are different ways of doing it.

But that's all debatable. Here's what isn't, in my opinion: Long before the later issues, he was singing on a christian rock album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testify_(P.O.D._album)

[Dan]

I agree that talent should not be wasted, but how one goes about demonstrating those talents is up for interpretation. Being part of the pop culture scene, one could argue, is a lot worse than being a basketball player. And even as a reggae star, there are different ways of doing it.

But that's all debatable. Here's what isn't, in my opinion: Long before the later issues, he was singing on a christian rock album: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testify_(P.O.D._album)

Sports is part of pop culture.  Tough nisayon either way.

Can you not sing together with people of another faith?  The lyrics of the song were L'dovid Ori IIRC.

[aygart]

And even in more kosher settings, guys like Lipa still have huge nisyonos.

Huge talent comes with that.  The trick is to pull it off while remaining humble and a yiras shamayim.

They don't even compare to teenage groupies. Not even close. This is besides that a BT needs to be more careful.