Topic Wiki

#1 Covid isn’t deadly & it only affects the elderly and immunocompromised 

Evidence for:

1) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists
2) https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916
3)

Evidence against:


Arguments against:
1)
2)
3)

Corresponding Refutations:
1)
2)
3)

Quote
Of the 100 included patients, 53 (53%) were male, and the mean (SD) age was 49 (14) years. The median (IQR) time interval between COVID-19 diagnosis and CMR was 71 (64-92) days. Of the 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19, 67 (67%) recovered at home, while 33 (33%) required hospitalization. At the time of CMR, high-sensitivity troponin T (hsTnT) was detectable (greater than 3 pg/mL) in 71 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (71%) and significantly elevated (greater than 13.9 pg/mL) in 5 patients (5%). Compared with healthy controls and risk factor–matched controls, patients recently recovered from COVID-19 had lower left ventricular ejection fraction, higher left ventricle volumes, and raised native T1 and T2. A total of 78 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (78%) had abnormal CMR findings, including raised myocardial native T1 (n = 73), raised myocardial native T2 (n = 60), myocardial late gadolinium enhancement (n = 32), or pericardial enhancement (n = 22).



#4 Masks don’t help


Evidence for:


1)

Quote
As of August 11, 24 (23%) Kansas counties had a mask mandate in place, and 81 did not. Mandated counties accounted for two thirds of the Kansas population (1,960,703 persons; 67.3%)*** and were spread throughout the state, although they tended to cluster together. Six (25%) mandated and 13 (16%) nonmandated counties were metropolitan areas.††† Thirteen (54%) mandated counties and seven (9%) nonmandated counties had implemented at least one other public health mitigation strategy not related to the use of masks (e.g., limits on size of gatherings and occupancy for restaurants). During June 1–7, 2020, the 7-day rolling average of daily COVID-19 incidence among counties that ultimately had a mask mandate was three cases per 100,000, and among counties that did not, was four per 100,000 (Table). By the week of the governor’s executive order requiring masks (July 3–9), COVID-19 incidence had increased 467% to 17 per 100,000 in mandated counties and 50% to six per 100,000 among nonmandated counties. By August 17–23, 2020, the 7-day rolling average COVID-19 incidence had decreased by 6% to 16 cases per 100,000 among mandated counties and increased by 100% to 12 per 100,000 among nonmandated counties.



https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm

2) https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpmd/103/6/article-p2400.xml?tab_body=fulltext

3) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048652v1.full-text

4) https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

5) https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30235-8/fulltext

6) Canada:
Quote
We find that, in the first few weeks after implementation, mask mandates are associated with a reduction of 25 percent in the weekly number of new COVID-19 cases.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27891/w27891.pdf



Evidence against:


Arguments against:
1)
2)
3)

Corresponding Refutations:
1)
2)
3)

Author Topic: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies  (Read 1787 times)

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2462
  • Total likes: 5113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2021, 12:12:16 AM »
And even if I'm wrong on #4, I mentioned a few others, and omitted some.

The point is that the attitude of this thread is in and of itself so condescendingly smug as to render any purported usefulness moot.

Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 24590
  • Total likes: 2356
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 75
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2021, 12:13:16 AM »
Aka Covid Fallacy #7

There's two aspects here:
1. I already had COVID (PCR positive or antibody test confirmed) therefore I can go on with my life as I please and I won't infect anyone.
2. Most of my community had COVID so we have he(a)rd immunity and can therefore go on with our lives as we please.

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 2101
  • Total likes: 559
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2021, 12:18:45 AM »
There's two aspects here:
1. I already had COVID (PCR positive or antibody test confirmed) therefore I can go on with my life as I please and I won't infect anyone.
2. Most of my community had COVID so we have he(a)rd immunity and can therefore go on with our lives as we please.
3. I already had it because my spouse tested positive and I and my kids had the sniffles at the same time, but we didn't bother getting tested

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 1272
  • Total likes: 808
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2021, 12:25:03 AM »
3. I already had it because my spouse tested positive and I and my kids had the sniffles at the same time, but we didn't bother getting tested
How about complete loss of taste & smell in addition to the "sniffles"?

but we didn't bother getting tested
"But testing wasn't available back in March-April" would be more honest.

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 2101
  • Total likes: 559
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2021, 12:26:46 AM »
How about complete loss of taste & smell in addition to the "sniffles"?
Probably a solid siman. But there are plenty of people in the sniffles group

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 13257
  • Total likes: 1516
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2021, 12:31:26 AM »
You don't have to be a scientist. Pick any jurisdiction in Florida, compare it to a heavily masked one in California.

You're proving my point. Florida had 28k Covid deaths out of 21m residents , California had 45k out of 40m residents which is ~20% more per capita. CA is doing something better than FL.

In terms of current positive tests, average of the last 7 days in California is 32 per 100,000 and Florida is 10% higher at 35. (Despite the fact CA is doing ~1.5x testing compared to Florida)

I was in Florida a few weeks ago and everybody was masked in restaurants, hotels, and supermarkets. I don't think there is that much of a difference in mask mandates / actual mask wearing between CA & FL, despite media partisan hyperbole.




Then do the same in NY in the Bronx and in Brooklyn, or even neighboring areas within Brooklyn itself, where the frum community is largely unmasked and the non Jewish community is masked heavily (double these days), and the death and case rate of the frum communities lies in the middle of the pack.
I would argue frum deaths in NY are greater than non-Jewish, even today. Can you back up your claim with real data?

« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:41:10 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 13257
  • Total likes: 1516
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2021, 12:32:54 AM »
There's two aspects here:
1. I already had COVID (PCR positive or antibody test confirmed) therefore I can go on with my life as I please and I won't infect anyone.
2. Most of my community had COVID so we have he(a)rd immunity and can therefore go on with our lives as we please.
You're right, I tried to limit it for brevity. Everybody is welcome to propose better ideas.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2462
  • Total likes: 5113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2021, 12:41:53 AM »
You're proving my point. Florida had 28k Covid deaths out of 21m residents , California had 45k out of 40m residents which is ~20% more per capita. CA is doing something better than FL.

In terms of current cases, average of the last 7 days in California is 32 per 100,000 and Florida is 10% higher at 35. (Despite the fact CA is doing 2x testing compared to Florida)

I was in Florida a few weeks ago and everybody was masked in restaurants, hotels, and supermarkets. I don't think there is that much of a difference in mask mandates / actual mask wearing between CA & FL, despite media partisan hyperbole.

I said compare jurisdictions within the state. For example

I was in Tampa on Sunday where they had dozens upon dozens of people around ensuring people were masked. A large majority of people were not masked until they were forced to do so entering the stadium. Wherever you were is not indicative or the entire state.


I would argue frum deaths in NY are greater than non-Jewish, even today. Can you back up your claim with real data?

Zip code data is readily available on NY's site.

And again, there are many states on the lower end of the deaths per capita table without enforced mask mandates, and many on the top, like NY, with mass mask compliance.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1814
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2021, 12:51:04 AM »
I was in Tampa on Sunday where they had dozens upon dozens of people around ensuring people were masked. A large majority of people were not masked until they were forced to do so entering the stadium.
Wait what? You had tickets???

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2462
  • Total likes: 5113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2021, 12:57:17 AM »
Wait what? You had tickets???

Perfect way to derail the thread  :P


Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1814
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2021, 12:58:13 AM »
Perfect way to derail the thread  :P
Don't ever try to bury the lede.

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 1814
  • Total likes: 1549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2021, 12:58:53 AM »
Perfect way to derail the thread  :P
Also an epic humblebrag.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 13257
  • Total likes: 1516
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2021, 12:58:57 AM »
I said compare jurisdictions within the state. For example

Seriously cherry picking by county?

Imperial, CA median income is $18,000 and unemployment is 19%. It has 3x Cvoid deaths than the rest of the state. 44% of the county have diabetes & 15% have Asthma . Hispanics and Latinos make up 85% of the county’s population, and they account for 92% of the coronavirus deaths.
 
Collier, FL median income is $31,000 and unemployment is 3.5%. It has 2x less death then the rest of its state.

Sure, mask mandate alone won't stop a pandemic.

there are many states on the lower end of the deaths per capita table without enforced mask mandates, and many on the top, like NY, with mass mask compliance.
All that proves is that other factors may have more influence than masks. It in no way disproves my claim that there is plenty of data that masks are effective and no data that proves masks aren't effective.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2462
  • Total likes: 5113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2021, 01:00:27 AM »
Another point in comparing FL to CA, we know that travel increases the spread of Covid, and FL has been flooded since March, and especially in winter months. CA, on the other hand, not so much. Do a search for flights to California, and you'll find their number has been cut dramatically, which is not the case for Florida.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2462
  • Total likes: 5113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2021, 01:03:45 AM »
Seriously cherry picking by county?

Imperial, CA median income is $18,000 and unemployment is 19%. It has 3x Cvoid deaths than the rest of the state. 44% of the county have diabetes & 15% have Asthma . Hispanics and Latinos make up 85% of the county’s population, and they account for 92% of the coronavirus deaths.
 
Collier, FL median income is $31,000 and unemployment is 3.5%. It has 2x less death then the rest of its state.

Sure, mask mandate alone won't stop a pandemic.
All that proves is that other factors may have more influence than masks. It in no way disproves my claim that there is plenty of data that masks are effective and no data that proves masks aren't effective.

I've said repeatedly that masks work, but that masks mandates... Not so much.

Either way, I'm done with this argument, consider me thoroughly debunked on one point. That still doesn't account for the numerous other strawman arguments and inflammatory language.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.