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#1 Covid isn’t deadly & it only affects the elderly and immunocompromised 

Evidence for:

1) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog-heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-scientists
2) https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916
3)

Evidence against:


Arguments against:
1)
2)
3)

Corresponding Refutations:
1)
2)
3)

Quote
Of the 100 included patients, 53 (53%) were male, and the mean (SD) age was 49 (14) years. The median (IQR) time interval between COVID-19 diagnosis and CMR was 71 (64-92) days. Of the 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19, 67 (67%) recovered at home, while 33 (33%) required hospitalization. At the time of CMR, high-sensitivity troponin T (hsTnT) was detectable (greater than 3 pg/mL) in 71 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (71%) and significantly elevated (greater than 13.9 pg/mL) in 5 patients (5%). Compared with healthy controls and risk factor–matched controls, patients recently recovered from COVID-19 had lower left ventricular ejection fraction, higher left ventricle volumes, and raised native T1 and T2. A total of 78 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 (78%) had abnormal CMR findings, including raised myocardial native T1 (n = 73), raised myocardial native T2 (n = 60), myocardial late gadolinium enhancement (n = 32), or pericardial enhancement (n = 22).



#4 Masks don’t help


Evidence for:


1)

Quote
As of August 11, 24 (23%) Kansas counties had a mask mandate in place, and 81 did not. Mandated counties accounted for two thirds of the Kansas population (1,960,703 persons; 67.3%)*** and were spread throughout the state, although they tended to cluster together. Six (25%) mandated and 13 (16%) nonmandated counties were metropolitan areas.††† Thirteen (54%) mandated counties and seven (9%) nonmandated counties had implemented at least one other public health mitigation strategy not related to the use of masks (e.g., limits on size of gatherings and occupancy for restaurants). During June 1–7, 2020, the 7-day rolling average of daily COVID-19 incidence among counties that ultimately had a mask mandate was three cases per 100,000, and among counties that did not, was four per 100,000 (Table). By the week of the governor’s executive order requiring masks (July 3–9), COVID-19 incidence had increased 467% to 17 per 100,000 in mandated counties and 50% to six per 100,000 among nonmandated counties. By August 17–23, 2020, the 7-day rolling average COVID-19 incidence had decreased by 6% to 16 cases per 100,000 among mandated counties and increased by 100% to 12 per 100,000 among nonmandated counties.



https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm

2) https://www.ajtmh.org/view/journals/tpmd/103/6/article-p2400.xml?tab_body=fulltext

3) https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048652v1.full-text

4) https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

5) https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30235-8/fulltext

6) Canada:
Quote
We find that, in the first few weeks after implementation, mask mandates are associated with a reduction of 25 percent in the weekly number of new COVID-19 cases.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27891/w27891.pdf



Evidence against:


Arguments against:
1)
2)
3)

Corresponding Refutations:
1)
2)
3)

Author Topic: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies  (Read 8758 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2021, 10:36:34 AM »
Vaccine. This is the single biggest concern among frum women. Even staunch pro vaccine women are not taking the covid vaccine because of it.

That's anecdotal. Way more people can prove from personal experience that it messed with their cycles. There's a very direct line from menstruation to fertility. (I'm not saying it does cause problems, aderabe.)

But I'm wondering if there's a place with clear succinct debunking of the myth, or if we can perhaps create one.
This was debunked by a doctor in CH and was quoted here. I know more than one anecdotal case (very close to me) and there are so many out there.

Offline Euclid

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2021, 10:42:40 AM »
Way more people can prove from personal experience that it messed with their cycles.
Messed with it in what way? Are these married women - married women in general who are child bearing age tend not to have the most regular cycles due to nursing, pregnancy, and BC?

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2021, 10:43:50 AM »
By now many people can prove that from personal experience (from people who got the shot and got pregnant a couple of weeks later).
So the vaccine makes you pregnant?
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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2021, 10:50:07 AM »
Messed with it in what way? Are these married women - married women in general who are child bearing age tend not to have the most regular cycles due to nursing, pregnancy, and BC?
I’ve heard this too, it does look like it might be a (temporary) side effect.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56901353
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2021, 10:55:11 AM »

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2021, 11:16:49 AM »
This was debunked by a doctor in CH and was quoted here. I know more than one anecdotal case (very close to me) and there are so many out there.

Link? I missed it.

You could know a thousand, it would still be "anecdotal". When it comes to fear about the vaccines, we don't accept anecdotal evidence to disprove, even if the very fear itself is based on anecdotal evidence. It's quite a convenient game to play.

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2021, 11:18:07 AM »
So the vaccine makes you pregnant?

*Bonei Olam has entered the chat*

Offline yelped

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2021, 11:38:51 AM »
Link? I missed it.

You could know a thousand, it would still be "anecdotal". When it comes to fear about the vaccines, we don't accept anecdotal evidence to disprove, even if the very fear itself is based on anecdotal evidence. It's quite a convenient game to play.
@TimT or @biobook (is the one who posted it or expounded upon it, iirc).

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2021, 11:40:41 AM »
@TimT or @biobook (is the one who posted it or expounded upon it, iirc).

You talking about Dr Rosen and Dr Bar Zeev? That was before widespread vaccination.

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2021, 11:44:34 AM »
What are the gynecologists saying ? They should have some solid data.

Offline biobook

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2021, 12:41:31 PM »
Dr. Rosen interviewed Dr. Bar Ze'ev in February, so this was before the widespread use of the vaccine in women of reproductive age and doesn't mention menstrual irregularities.  There has been more reassuring data since then indicating that the vaccine is safe for pregnant and breastfeeding women, so it's possible he's modified his advice.  Here's the section of the transcript on fertility.  https://covid19ch.blogspot.com/

WAS THE VACCINE STUDIED IN PREGNANT WOMEN?

DR. BAR-ZEEV:  Pregnant women were not included in the clinical trials.  By definition -- well it's normal that that happens. Because of unknown risks that occur before clinical trials, you know, the trials are there to determine risk.  We usually first do these trials in healthy adults and in this case we also included older adults in people with other conditions.  But we want to know, we want to establish that the vaccines are safe in that population before we move on to put at risk women who are pregnant and their unborn child.  So at this point those trials are starting and are underway and pregnant women are going to be recruited to trials and we will know more as time goes on. 

However, we also know by now that COVID disease does pose an increased risk for women who are pregnant compared to women who are not pregnant.  Not to the same degree as influenza does, influenza is a major cause of issues particularly in the pandemic but also -- in pandemic influenza, 2001 but not just in pandemic also in seasonal influenza.  Perhaps not to that degree but still COVID poses an increased risk to women in pregnancy.  That's a real risk.  Okay. And so their question is how do we best balance those risks?

With an RNA vaccine that from biological plausibility point of view is unlikely to cause specific and major issues for women who are pregnant, it caused no major toxicity in the animal studies of pregnant animals, and I know that animals are not humans but some of those animals were nonhuman primates so, you know, biologically not very dissimilar to humans at least in terms of the Guf [body] if not in the Neshama [soul].  And, you know, that was reassuring.  We will be more reassured once we have the trials that have demonstrated safety in pregnant women.  There is no question about that.

But now we're facing the situation of what should be done now, what's the best approach for women now?  The current recommendations in the United States is that if a women is eligible to receive the vaccine because she has comorbid conditions for example, other medical conditions and it obviously doesn't apply to the elderly, or because she's a health care worker and is at risk of being exposed and potentially getting a greater risk of large exposures, the patient coughs right in the face and so on, then the suggestion is, the recommendation is at the moment that they should go ahead and receive vaccine but there is this ability or this recommendation to discuss it with their practitioner if they want to, to think about it, to discuss it with their practitioner.  They don't have to discuss it with their practitioner.  If they want to go ahead and do it, they can do it and it's currently recommended that women who are pregnant can go ahead and do it.  Women who are breast feeding, there's in my mind as a pediatrician, as an immunologist, as a vaccine scientist, I just do not see any issue really with that and, you know, clearly there will be women who are lactating and breast feeding who will be included in some of these trials going forward but from a first principles point of view I'm happy to be very reassuring about that. 

Obviously I don't know and I obviously I could be wrong but I think on the balance of probabilities, you know, you want that child to have a healthy mother and you want that child to remain with a mother who is free from COVID and the uncertainty that there might be around breast feeding and vaccination is far outweighed by the risks of COVID.  Even in a young woman.  Okay.  So that's on the issue of pregnancy and breast feeding.

DOES THE VACCINE AFFECT FERTILITY?

[54:09] Fertility, I'm going to divide my comments on fertility into two. 

Okay.  The first is talking to women who may be undergoing fertility treatment, women on IVF and so on.  There's nothing known about that situation.  So I'm very cautious about making any specific recommendations.  I've heard that some clinicians argue potentially against receiving the vaccine.  The vaccine as I said does cause quite a lot of local side effects, quite commonly and it causes fever quite commonly and I've heard some practitioners say that because it could cause fever even if you take Tylenol or acetaminophen, whatever, you shouldn't take Advil if are you pregnant, but, you know, if you are IVF and a fever may be an issue for you discuss it with your practitioner, discuss with your gynecologist, with your obstetrician, with your family physician.  If there's ever a question about those kinds of issues don't just look at the guidance for everybody, it's a personal issue, speak to your practitioner.  Okay.  I am not going to tell you to rush and go get vaccinated, I think it's important in special cases to discuss it with a practitioner.  So that's the end of what I know about that.  I don't know much more to say about that.

This other issue is this thing that's been circulating particularly in the Chareidi [religious]  community.  I don't know in the Chabad community maybe also.  I mean Chabad is Chareidi but, you know, what I mean, sorry.  I should be careful what I say.  But about this issue of syncytium one, placental protein, this argument that there is sequence homology, in other words that the protein looks similar to the receptor binding domain on COVID and so on, that by having vaccine, you develop antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and that might act against placental adhesion to the endometrium, all these kinds of things. 

I've seen materials that have been circulated on this that look very advanced, that look very scientific, that look very convincing, they look very frightening.  And particularly for, you know, our community where fertility is such an important part of our life and, you know, in every regard.  Like, you know, it's so important for us.  It's a frightening issue. 

The facts are as follows.  There is no sequence homology between syncytium one and the receptor binding domain.  That's not the case.  Okay. 

And just rationally thinking for a minute, millions of people around the world including millions of young women have been infected with COVID-19.  And we've heard lots of things emerging from COVID-19, most of them are mild disease but we've heard things emerging.  We've not heard any -- and it's been a year, okay, we've not heard of this sudden drop-off in fertility globally.  That's not the case.  That's not happened.  And if the vaccine was to induce antibodies against the receptor binding domain or the spike protein obviously so does infection.  That's what the immune response to infection is against.  So the logic of it would say that if there's reason to doubt that the vaccine -- if there's reason to be concerned that the vaccine might cause infertility, Lo Alainu, [G-d forbid] then the very same logic would argue that natural infection should cause infertility, but we've had millions of cases of COVID around the world and we have not seen drop-off in fertility or any of that kind of situation.  And it just is not a rational argument, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense biologically, it has no basis biologically, it's been hyped up, it's been dressed up.  But it's false.  Okay.  So I just want to just set that aside.  If it was true it would be really important and I'm not taking it lightly and I'm not brushing it off, but it's false.  Okay.  So that's really important.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 12:52:10 PM by biobook »

Offline AsherO

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2021, 01:05:13 PM »
Is anyone still claiming that? About COVID or the vaccine?

Did Zelenko drop any of his claims, including that one?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline biobook

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2021, 01:18:21 PM »
I wouldn't call it a fallacy or a myth, and I wouldn't just brush it off.  From the links posted, it does seem that a certain number of women are reporting menstrual irregularities after the vaccine.  Some of the obvious questions:

How frequent is this happening compared to menstrual irregularities cropping up at random other times? 
How relevant are these particular menstrual irregularities for fertility?
Menstruation is external, so visible, but what's really important is internal, like the hormonal levels and structure of the uterus and function of the ovaries.  Has anyone looked at these parameters in those women who report menstrual irregularities?

I'll see if I can find anything. 

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2021, 01:30:57 PM »
And how long are these irregularities lasting for ?

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2021, 01:33:43 PM »
I wouldn't call it a fallacy or a myth, and I wouldn't just brush it off.  From the links posted, it does seem that a certain number of women are reporting menstrual irregularities after the vaccine. 

The interesting thing (to me) to note is that (anecdotally, of course) similar changes were reported by women who got covid. And if that's the case (would be interesting to see if there is data to back this up), and covid has not caused fertility issues, then neither would the vaccine. (similar to the final point you quoted from Baar Zeev.)


How frequent is this happening compared to menstrual irregularities cropping up at random other times? 
Anecdotally, and based on the NPR piece above, a lot - like by the thousand, and nothing close to "regular irregularities". (I didn't think this discussion would veer into nimna hanimnaos)
 
How relevant are these particular menstrual irregularities for fertility?

IANAD, but wouldn't the fact that post-menopausal women are reporting similar effects preclude any relevance to fertility?


Offline biobook

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2022, 06:32:38 PM »
I wouldn't call it a fallacy or a myth, and I wouldn't just brush it off.  From the links posted, it does seem that a certain number of women are reporting menstrual irregularities after the vaccine.  Some of the obvious questions:

How frequent is this happening compared to menstrual irregularities cropping up at random other times? 
How relevant are these particular menstrual irregularities for fertility?
Menstruation is external, so visible, but what's really important is internal, like the hormonal levels and structure of the uterus and function of the ovaries.  Has anyone looked at these parameters in those women who report menstrual irregularities?

I'll see if I can find anything.
Well, I finally found it. 

Women’s Periods May Be Late After Coronavirus Vaccination, Study Suggests

But it's only one day late, on average, and doesn't seem to have any clinical significance.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/06/health/covid-vaccine-menstrual-cycles.html

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2022, 02:42:06 PM »
Vaccines are extremely effective against Omicron

https://twitter.com/craig_a_spencer/status/1484555496837333002
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2022, 02:56:10 PM »
Vaccines are extremely effective against Omicron

https://twitter.com/craig_a_spencer/status/1484555496837333002
I'd like to see this broken down to 2x vs 3x vaxxed.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2022, 07:59:48 PM »
Vaccines are extremely effective against Omicron

https://twitter.com/craig_a_spencer/status/1484555496837333002
Something is seriously wrong with these graphs as others have pointed out  #1 in every other country they are saying getting infected with omicron is pretty similar vacinated vs. unvaccinated these charts show a whole different story. #2 why is there a huge difference in cases vacinated vs. unvaccinated all of the sudden when it comes to omicron - what happened by Delta unvaccinated were fine? These charts have to be flawed

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Re: DDF Mythbusters: The 10 Covid Fallacies
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2022, 10:37:31 PM »
Something is seriously wrong with these graphs as others have pointed out  #1 in every other country they are saying getting infected with omicron is pretty similar vacinated vs. unvaccinated these charts show a whole different story.
Can you provide a source for this claim?
#2 why is there a huge difference in cases vacinated vs. unvaccinated all of the sudden when it comes to omicron - what happened by Delta unvaccinated were fine? These charts have to be flawed
What are you talking about? The differences by Delta were even more pronounced.
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