Author Topic: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.  (Read 9419 times)

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31008
  • Total likes: 7974
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline R.A.T.

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Dec 2020
  • Posts: 87
  • Total likes: 61
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2021, 12:09:17 PM »
Isn't that gift cards and direct MOs/reloads.
Yes
What's the breakdown for gift cards vs direct MOs/reloads.
I would guess most were GC's based on the liquidation methods available at that time.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3940
  • Total likes: 402
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2021, 12:25:06 PM »
Was I living under a rock? What was the method?
Rite Aid. Depended on cashier.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2021, 12:33:09 PM »
Buy GreenDot with CC. Buy MO with GreenDot = Nontaxable?
Reload GreenDot with CC. Buy MO with GreenDot = Taxable?
What is wrong with this picture?
Where do you s there should be a difference between buying the card and a reload?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2021, 12:35:31 PM »
Where do you s there should be a difference between buying the card and a reload?
However, petitioners’ direct purchases of money
orders and reloads of cash into the debit cards
using the American Express cards presents a different
question from the purchase of Visa gift cards. The
Visa gift cards have product characteristics. They
provide a consumer service embodied in a simple
plastic card for convenience. The Visa gift cards
are not redeemable for cash, but the money orders
purchased with the American Express cards and the
infusion of cash into the reloadable debit cards are
difficult to reconcile with the IRS credit card reward
policy. No product or service is obtained in these
uses of the American Express cards other than cash
transfers. The money orders are not properly treated as
a product subject to a price adjustment because they
were eligible for deposit into petitioners’ bank account
from acquisition. Similarly, the cash infusions to the
reloadable debit cards were not product purchases.
The reloadable debit cards were used for Moneygram
transfers, which are arguably a service. However, the
Reward Dollars in dispute were issued for the cash
infusions, not the transfer fees. Therefore, we uphold
respondent's inclusion in income of the related Reward
[*22] Dollars for the direct purchases of money orders
and the cash infusions to the reloadable debit cards.

We note that the above holdings are not based upon
the application of the cash equivalence doctrine but
rather the incompatibility of the direct money order
purchases and the debit card reloads with the IRS
policy excluding credit card rewards for product and
service purchases from income.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 12:40:50 PM »
However, petitioners’ direct purchases of money
orders and reloads of cash into the debit cards
using the American Express cards presents a different
question from the purchase of Visa gift cards. The
Visa gift cards have product characteristics. They
provide a consumer service embodied in a simple
plastic card for convenience. The Visa gift cards
are not redeemable for cash, but the money orders
purchased with the American Express cards and the
infusion of cash into the reloadable debit cards are
difficult to reconcile with the IRS credit card reward
policy. No product or service is obtained in these
uses of the American Express cards other than cash
transfers. The money orders are not properly treated as
a product subject to a price adjustment because they
were eligible for deposit into petitioners’ bank account
from acquisition. Similarly, the cash infusions to the
reloadable debit cards were not product purchases.
The reloadable debit cards were used for Moneygram
transfers, which are arguably a service. However, the
Reward Dollars in dispute were issued for the cash
infusions, not the transfer fees. Therefore, we uphold
respondent's inclusion in income of the related Reward
[*22] Dollars for the direct purchases of money orders
and the cash infusions to the reloadable debit cards.

We note that the above holdings are not based upon
the application of the cash equivalence doctrine but
rather the incompatibility of the direct money order
purchases and the debit card reloads with the IRS
policy excluding credit card rewards for product and
service purchases from income.

This is differentiating between gift cards and debit cards.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Zalc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 1804
  • Total likes: 158
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2021, 12:47:19 PM »
Link?
Is or is not a taxable event?
Is not.
It was a typo

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2021, 12:48:28 PM »
This is differentiating between gift cards and debit cards.
It sounds like the purchase of a debit card is a bona fide purchase, but the reloading of a debit card is not.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2021, 01:16:32 PM »
It sounds like the purchase of a debit card is a bona fide purchase, but the reloading of a debit card is not.
There is *some value* in having the card itself that can be considered a product. It then becomes a question of how much to attribute to the product and how much to the cash value initially loaded onto it. THye seem to be choosing to ignore that (at least for now) and consider the entire purchase to be one bundle. A reload does not have any such bundling.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Ephcc90

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 565
  • Total likes: 21
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Far Rockaway
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2021, 01:42:34 PM »
Sent green/sklarz an email asking if we can chat.
Anyone know them personally?
I really don't get their press release. I'm sure their clients don't feel like they "won" since they're now liable for what is likely most of the MS.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2021, 01:53:05 PM »
I really don't get their press release. I'm sure their clients don't feel like they "won" since they're now liable for what is likely most of the MS.
How do you know the reloads were most?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Ephcc90

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 565
  • Total likes: 21
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Far Rockaway
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2021, 02:06:50 PM »
How do you know the reloads were most?
Actually, you're right. It is a big win.

"Most of petitioners’ total
dollars spent with the American Express cards were for
purchases of Visa gift cards."

But I do hope this doesn't have ramifications beyond MS.

"We note that the above holdings are not based upon
the application of the cash equivalence doctrine but
rather the incompatibility of the direct money order
purchases and the debit card reloads with the IRS
policy excluding credit card rewards for product and
service purchases from income. These holdings are
based on the unique circumstances of this case. We
hope that respondent polices the IRS policy in the
future in regulations or public pronouncements rather
than relying on piecemeal litigation."

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2021, 02:08:18 PM »
Actually, you're right. It is a big win.

Yup.
Bloomberg goofed it seems. But I'd live to talk to the lawyers to confirm my reading.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2021, 02:09:12 PM »
I really don't get their press release. I'm sure their clients don't feel like they "won" since they're now liable for what is likely most of the MS.

Why would that prevent them from writing a self-serving press release?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2021, 02:12:29 PM »
Why would that prevent them from writing a self-serving press release?
How do you read the ruling as a loss?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18394
  • Total likes: 14572
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2021, 02:21:08 PM »
How do you read the ruling as a loss?
I don't but it is only a partial win. My point was that the question doesn't start either way.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17267
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: FYI: Tax Court rules that points from certain MS are taxable.
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2021, 03:38:36 PM »
Draft article, please don't share yet, but post here about any corrections please.

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/milespoints/tax-court-weighs-whether-manufactured-spending-taxable-income/
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.