Author Topic: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?  (Read 23407 times)

Online ExGingi

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2021, 02:36:14 PM »
Absofreakinglutely

Generational gap?

Though my daughter got engaged after less than 5 dates IINM.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2021, 02:38:34 PM »
Generational gap?

Personality differences.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2021, 02:41:15 PM »
You really think 5-10 dates are better than 3-5 dates?
I spend more time researching and booking some award tickets than the time it takes to go on 3-5 dates.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2021, 02:56:59 PM »
I spend more time researching and booking some award tickets than the time it takes to go on 3-5 dates.

Always awkward when halfway into the date you say, "actually, I'm gonna go with plan b"
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2021, 02:58:22 PM »
There's a famous story:

Rav Moshe Bick Ztz"l was a big believer in 8-10 dates, and felt that 8 should be the minimum.
The Satmar Rebbe believed in no more than 2-3 dates, so much so, that he said of the other mehalech, "קצתי בחיי מפני בנות חת" (play on the word חת for 8)
When Rav Bick was told this, he responded simply, He's a Mesader Kiddushin, I'm a Mesader Gittin"
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2021, 02:58:54 PM »
Always awkward when halfway into the date you say, "actually, I'm gonna go with plan b"

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Offline Euclid

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2021, 02:59:13 PM »
Always awkward when halfway into the date you say, "actually, I'm gonna go with plan b"
Quick trip to the pharmacy

Offline Dan

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2021, 03:01:28 PM »
Always awkward when halfway into the date you say, "actually, I'm gonna go with plan b"
Well, she did first ask what kind of underwear he was wearing.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2021, 03:04:06 PM »
Disagree.

You won't learn everything, but with 5-10 dates you can learn how someone reacts to different situations and people, what they like doing or don't like doing, if they have any mannerisms that you can't stand, etc.

Maybe, but there will still be the ones that you didn't see. The same way you deal with those you can deal with the ones you see in dates 5-10. Not much of a gain there.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2021, 03:04:57 PM »
Generational gap?

Though my daughter got engaged after less than 5 dates IINM.

My daughter got engaged in fewer dates than I did.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #110 on: March 09, 2021, 03:09:01 PM »
Maybe, but there will still be the ones that you didn't see. The same way you deal with those you can deal with the ones you see in dates 5-10. Not much of a gain there.
I don't think there is a right number of dates. Depends on personalities of the daters. The idea that it should be exactly 3, 5, 7, 9, or whatever number of dates seems silly to me. Clearly there's a point where there's little marginal gain to what you'll learn on more dates, but that depends on how long it takes for someone to open up and how long it takes for someone to feel comfortable making a lifelong decision. To say it's a blanket 3-5 dates seems wrong to me.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #111 on: March 09, 2021, 03:10:05 PM »
My daughter got engaged in fewer dates than I did.

The רבש"ע has his ways of making things happen. I can tell you that I personally know of cases where the shidduch wouldn't have happened if everything was known in advance. The couples and families are thankful that they didn't have those things stop them from going ahead with what turned out as wonderful shidduchim.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2021, 03:12:16 PM »
The רבש"ע has his ways of making things happen. I can tell you that I personally know of cases where the shidduch wouldn't have happened if everything was known in advance. The couples and families are thankful that they didn't have those things stop them from going ahead with what turned out as wonderful shidduchim.
This is incredibly common.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #113 on: March 09, 2021, 03:13:39 PM »
The רבש"ע has his ways of making things happen. I can tell you that I personally know of cases where the shidduch wouldn't have happened if everything was known in advance. The couples and families are thankful that they didn't have those things stop them from going ahead with what turned out as wonderful shidduchim.
Hashem will find a way isn't a contradiction to dating until you feel comfortable with the situation.

Rabbi Paltiel made sure everyone got dor yeshorim tested when he was my chassidus teacher in CH and lectured on his own experience. I always wondered how that works, given that he wouldn't have gotten married to his wife had they gotten tested. But...Hashem finds a way.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2021, 03:32:42 PM »
how long it takes for someone to feel comfortable making a lifelong decision.
THis is the crux of it. It is not anything rational at all but rather feelings that don't care about my facts. This doesn't mean that they were really productive in any real way. I was no different, I went out 7 times with my wife. I recognize that there is not really anything I gained after the first few dates that I did not know after the 4th.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2021, 03:54:53 PM »
THis is the crux of it. It is not anything rational at all but rather feelings that don't care about my facts. This doesn't mean that they were really productive in any real way. I was no different, I went out 7 times with my wife. I recognize that there is not really anything I gained after the first few dates that I did not know after the 4th.
That itself may be reason to go out a few more times, to make sure there is nothing critical that you haven't seen yet. The fact that there wasn't anything in your case doesn't mean there isn't for anyone else.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2021, 04:01:21 PM »
That itself may be reason to go out a few more times, to make sure there is nothing critical that you haven't seen yet. The fact that there wasn't anything in your case doesn't mean there isn't for anyone else.
ANd how will anyone make sure of that? What are the odds that anything critical will be found out between dates 5 and 10? I would guesstimate it at close to 100%. Close to everyone I have spoken with has felt that they were looking at all the wrong things when they were going out anyhow, but had no way to know it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2021, 04:50:58 PM »
Being an outsider to this world, obviously, I look at it with a different lens than many of you. But I have another burning question for you. I may have posted earlier, but I heard a few particular stories that make me think that the "Shidduch Process" is more messed up than I thought:

- An acquaintance of my wife's married her first husband not having any idea that he was taking mental health medication for a serious mental health condition. (When she discovered this a few months into her marriage, she got divorced pretty quickly).

- Someone relayed me a story about a kid who had a medical episode in camp, that was related to a certain condition. The parents didn't inform the camp of it because they didn't want any record of something that could be seen as a negative for their children's shidduch prospects.

- My mom (A"H) had cancer 4 times. She was part of a frum anonymous phone support group for women with breast cancer. She said it was anonymous, because many of the women were afraid of letting out the 'secret' of their cancer as it might damage shidduch prospects.

- I've heard other stories about the kids of Balei Teshuva, kids of divorce, and adopted kids all having difficulty for shidduchim.

My question is - is that really how the system works? Is there like a two-tiered system where people of type 'A' only date others of type 'a' and all of the 'b's get lumped into a separate box?

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #118 on: March 09, 2021, 04:55:21 PM »
Being an outsider to this world, obviously, I look at it with a different lens than many of you. But I have another burning question for you. I may have posted earlier, but I heard a few particular stories that make me think that the "Shidduch Process" is more messed up than I thought:

- An acquaintance of my wife's married her first husband not having any idea that he was taking mental health medication for a serious mental health condition. (When she discovered this a few months into her marriage, she got divorced pretty quickly).

- Someone relayed me a story about a kid who had a medical episode in camp, that was related to a certain condition. The parents didn't inform the camp of it because they didn't want any record of something that could be seen as a negative for their children's shidduch prospects.

- My mom (A"H) had cancer 4 times. She was part of a frum anonymous phone support group for women with breast cancer. She said it was anonymous, because many of the women were afraid of letting out the 'secret' of their cancer as it might damage shidduch prospects.

- I've heard other stories about the kids of Balei Teshuva, kids of divorce, and adopted kids all having difficulty for shidduchim.

My question is - is that really how the system works? Is there like a two-tiered system where people of type 'A' only date others of type 'a' and all of the 'b's get lumped into a separate box?
The dishonesty mentioned is definitely abominable, but life isn't merely two tiers, there are countless tiers. It's easy to mock others, but would you have dated somebody on a wheelchair?

On the whole, children of stable homes are healthier than children of broken homes. Of course there are countless exceptions, but you can't fault people for wanting the best.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2021, 05:16:43 PM »
Being an outsider to this world

Truth is, this forum is covering a bunch of different worlds.

- An acquaintance of my wife's married her first husband not having any idea that he was taking mental health medication for a serious mental health condition. (When she discovered this a few months into her marriage, she got divorced pretty quickly).

I can tell you an almost identical story that happened to a woman I know in South Africa belonging to a traditional non-Hareidi community and wasn't set up by a shadchan. Many people knew of the husband's condition and didn't tell her.


- Someone relayed me a story about a kid who had a medical episode in camp, that was related to a certain condition. The parents didn't inform the camp of it because they didn't want any record of something that could be seen as a negative for their children's shidduch prospects.
Methinks those parents likely did other harmful things to that child for other dubious reasons.
 
- My mom (A"H) had cancer 4 times. She was part of a frum anonymous phone support group for women with breast cancer. She said it was anonymous, because many of the women were afraid of letting out the 'secret' of their cancer as it might damage shidduch prospects.

- I've heard other stories about the kids of Balei Teshuva, kids of divorce, and adopted kids all having difficulty for shidduchim.

My question is - is that really how the system works? Is there like a two-tiered system where people of type 'A' only date others of type 'a' and all of the 'b's get lumped into a separate box?

IMHO, I think there are a few factors.
1) yes, some people do look at like that.
2) It has become a "thing" because people have talked it into becoming a thing. IOW, who says all the women on that support group wanted it to be anonymous, or if they did, who says that was the reason? It's more than possible the person who formed the group decided it might be a concern and so they set it up that way.
3) Society as a whole is extremely classist. This is not something unique to the Hareidi world. It's a question of where you draw the line. So you are picking extremes like breast cancer, though that would hardly be a factor to a vast majority. The fact that it is for some gets blown out of proportion.
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