Author Topic: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?  (Read 23787 times)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2021, 06:04:52 PM »
Each case is different, and everyone should ask their LOR.

For common mental health issues that are controlled by meds, many rabbonim say that it should be disclosed after the third date. There are other issues that may have to be disclosed earlier.

I suspect that this case:
An acquaintance of my wife's married her first husband not having any idea that he was taking mental health medication for a serious mental health condition. (When she discovered this a few months into her marriage, she got divorced pretty quickly).
may have actually been a successful marriage had it been disclosed at the proper time. Hiding something of this nature is a divorceable flaw, while disclosing it after the third date would've given the other party the chance to decide if they want to go ahead, and in many cases they do.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #121 on: March 10, 2021, 11:16:22 AM »
The dishonesty mentioned is definitely abominable, but life isn't merely two tiers, there are countless tiers. It's easy to mock others, but would you have dated somebody on a wheelchair?

Firstly, I didn't mean to mock anyone, I am genuinely curious as an outsider looking in.

I imagine that there are multiple tiers, just chose A and B for simplicity.

Would I have dated someone in a Wheelchair? - if I am being truly honest, if someone set me up on a date with a girl in a wheelchair, 98% chance I say no (at least to start). But if there was a young woman I had worked with who was in a wheelchair that I had got to know, I'd more than likely have asked her out. 

But let me ask you this - how would someone get 'Redt' to someone in a wheelchair? Would they be redt a person with another physical disability? If an able-bodied person is redt to someone in a wheelchair, should they take it as a sign that they're not worthy shidduch material? (like the scene in shababnikim)

On the whole, children of stable homes are healthier than children of broken homes. Of course there are countless exceptions, but you can't fault people for wanting the best.

Define a 'stable' home? Define a broken home? Does someone who lost a parent treated the same as someone who's parents divorced? If one sibling is OTD, is that really always a reflection on the parents or the siblings?

I am firm believer in shades of gray, and look for nuance, and I realize that it's unfair to judge on the small sample sizes of anecdotes I hear from family and friends, but when I hear these stories from people that I care about, I probably feel it's a wider issue, and get saddended over it.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #122 on: March 10, 2021, 11:32:10 AM »
Rav Yehuda Jacobs zt"l (a mashgiach of BMG) used to say in his bi-annual shidduch shmuess that people need role models in shalom bayis, and a child from a home with two parents will be more equipped for marriage than a single-parent home.

Of course, the dynamics of marriage can be an acquired skill. And everyone has their own flaws, which may make them realize that a child of a single home would be perfectly equivalent to their flaws. But to fault someone for preferring the child of a two-parent home is wrong, IMO.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #123 on: March 10, 2021, 11:38:05 AM »
- An acquaintance of my wife's married her first husband not having any idea that he was taking mental health medication for a serious mental health condition. (When she discovered this a few months into her marriage, she got divorced pretty quickly).
For common mental health issues that are controlled by meds, many rabbonim say that it should be disclosed after the third date. There are other issues that may have to be disclosed earlier.

I suspect that this case:may have actually been a successful marriage had it been disclosed at the proper time. Hiding something of this nature is a divorceable flaw, while disclosing it after the third date would've given the other party the chance to decide if they want to go ahead, and in many cases they do.

So I have personal experience with a case like this. In this instance, the family was in such denial they didn't even have the person medicated. The girl only found out about the issue after she was already pregnant. The mental health stigmas in our communities are terrifying.

If one sibling is OTD, is that really always a reflection on the parents or the siblings?

Again, some very personal experience with this one. It's absolutely not a reflection of anyone but the individual, but in many circles, it's seen as a failing of the village that raised the OTD person, specifically the family. The stigmas here have shifted considerably over the last 5 years or so, but not nearly enough.

Ultimately,
I hear these stories..., ... it's a wider issue, and get saddended over it.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #124 on: March 10, 2021, 11:40:26 AM »
But to fault someone for preferring the child of a two-parent home is wrong, IMO.

The people with that preference are misguided, IMO. I know too many families with toxic parental relationships and many children of divorce who grew up in stable homes with great examples of a bayis ne'eman, either through remarriage or from other family experiences.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #125 on: March 10, 2021, 11:43:01 AM »


Again, some very personal experience with this one. It's absolutely not a reflection of anyone but the individual, but in many circles, it's seen as a failing of the village that raised the OTD person, specifically the family. The stigmas here have shifted considerably over the last 5 years or so, but not nearly enough.
Aren't a really high percentage of OTD people abuse victims? And a considerable percentage of abuse victims were abused by family members and/or not dealt with properly by their family?

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2021, 11:44:22 AM »
The people with that preference are misguided, IMO. I know too many families with toxic parental relationships and many children of divorce who grew up in stable homes with great examples of a bayis ne'eman, either through remarriage or from other family experiences.
Perhaps the parameters should be clarified, but the sentiment is true. A child that grew up watching a healthy marriage (Whether biological parents, step parents, siblings, etc) is usually better equipped to emulate it in their own home.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #127 on: March 10, 2021, 11:44:51 AM »
Aren't a really high percentage of OTD people abuse victims? And a considerable percentage of abuse victims were abused by family members and/or not dealt with properly by their family?
Maybe that was true years ago, but I doubt that could still be said.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #128 on: March 10, 2021, 11:46:31 AM »
Aren't a really high percentage of OTD people abuse victims? And a considerable percentage of abuse victims were abused by family members and/or not dealt with properly by their family?

No, and this is a mistaken assumption of epic proportions. Assumptions like this are why some of the shidduchim issues exist.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2021, 11:48:24 AM »
Perhaps the parameters should be clarified, but the sentiment is true. A child that grew up watching a healthy marriage (Whether biological parents, step parents, siblings, etc) is usually better equipped to emulate it in their own home.

I didn't disagree with the sentiment, but dismissing a prospect out of hand because s/he has divorced parents is wrong. Don't be lazy, do due diligence, and find out if the person was raised in a way where they had this exposure.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2021, 11:48:52 AM »
I didn't disagree with the sentiment, but dismissing a prospect out of hand because s/he has divorced parents is wrong. Don't be lazy, do due diligence, and find out if the person was raised in a way where they had this exposure.
+100

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #131 on: March 10, 2021, 11:53:31 AM »
No, and this is a mistaken assumption of epic proportions. Assumptions like this are why some of the shidduchim issues exist.
We've spent the past 2 decades building up community awareness of abuse, which was started by the kids at risk crisis. FWIU I believe that this is true - teens that go OTD are highly likely to have been abused. And is absolutely something to take into consideration for shidduchim.

Adults (parents or siblings) going OTD (which is a whole "new" parsha) is something I personally wouldn't have much of an issue with. That's totally an adult decision and in all likelihood isn't something that would have any bearing on the "quality" of child/sibling.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2021, 11:55:24 AM »
We've spent the past 2 decades building up community awareness of abuse, which was started by the kids at risk crisis. FWIU I believe that this is true - teens that go OTD are highly likely to have been abused. And is absolutely something to take into consideration for shidduchim.

Adults (parents or siblings) going OTD (which is a whole "new" parsha) is something I personally wouldn't have much of an issue with. That's totally an adult decision and in all likelihood isn't something that would have any bearing on the "quality" of child/sibling.

Teens who were abused have a high rate of going OTD. Teens who go OTD don't necessarily have a high rate of being abused. I speak from personal experience. I lived in that world for many, many years.
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2021, 12:06:42 PM »
Teens who were abused have a high rate of going OTD. Teens who go OTD don't necessarily have a high rate of being abused. I speak from personal experience. I lived in that world for many, many years.
Got it. I thought they were congruent; thanks for clarifying. Either way, it's still definitely something to keep in mind when researching a family with an OTD child.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #134 on: March 10, 2021, 12:08:56 PM »
Got it. I thought they were congruent; thanks for clarifying. Either way, it's still definitely something to keep in mind when researching a family with an OTD child.

Out of curiosity, would having a sibling who was a survivor of abuse change how you looked at prospective shidduch?
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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #135 on: March 10, 2021, 12:16:49 PM »
Out of curiosity, would having a sibling who was a survivor of abuse change how you looked at prospective shidduch?
If the prospective boy/girl had a sibling who survived abuse, I would definitely want to do additional research into it. Because I want to be sure that they themselves weren't abused too.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #136 on: March 10, 2021, 12:21:43 PM »
If the prospective boy/girl had a sibling who survived abuse, I would definitely want to do additional research into it. Because I want to be sure that they themselves weren't abused too.

Is surviving abuse something you think needs to be disclosed before any dates? At what point should it be brought up? I'm assuming you don't expect to see it on a résumé...
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Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2021, 12:26:58 PM »
Is surviving abuse something you think needs to be disclosed before any dates? At what point should it be brought up? I'm assuming you don't expect to see it on a résumé...
That's a great question. I'm not qualified to answer that - though I think it's part of doing due diligence. But since abuse is still a very private matter it's highly unlikely you would be able to uncover anything prior to dating (notwithstanding any obvious flags - such as an OTD sibling); it's definitely something that needs to be disclosed while dating, 100%.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #138 on: March 10, 2021, 12:31:26 PM »
I didn't disagree with the sentiment, but dismissing a prospect out of hand because s/he has divorced parents is wrong. Don't be lazy, do due diligence, and find out if the person was raised in a way where they had this exposure.
I don't think most people dismiss it out of hand, but when faced with 2 options people will generally choose the easier one first.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #139 on: March 10, 2021, 12:36:09 PM »
You really think 5-10 dates are better than 3-5 dates?

Of course.

I've gone out 5 times with a guy and it meant nothing.