Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[Lurker]

I don't think most people dismiss it out of hand, but when faced with 2 options people will generally choose the easier one first.

I get that, but making a shidduch isn't supposed to be easy. If you aren't willing to do proper research into prospective shidduchim, you have no business being involved. JMHO.

[avromie7]

I get that, but making a shidduch isn't supposed to be easy. If you aren't willing to do proper research into prospective shidduchim, you have no business being involved. JMHO.

When faced with 2 resumes, people will always research the one that sounds the most like what they're looking for. If that one doesn't work out they'll move on to the next. This is normal human behavior, it's not specific to shidduchim.

[Lurker]

That's a great question. I'm not qualified to answer that - though I think it's part of doing due diligence. But since abuse is still a very private matter it's highly unlikely you would be able to uncover anything prior to dating (notwithstanding any obvious flags - such as an OTD sibling); it's definitely something that needs to be disclosed while dating, 100%.

There's that issue again. I want to be clear that anything I've said or am about to say isn't personal. This mindset is a product of a broken system.

False and baseless assumptions, or "red flags," have destroyed the shidduch system. He went to this yeshiva, so he must not like learning. She has an OTD brother, so the family might have an issue with addiction, abuse, or even weak foundations in emunah. This is why we have a transparency issue. This is why people cut off their OTD kids. This is why people don't want to acknowledge or address mental health issues in their families. This is why we have a "runt" issue in the frum world. Pigs discard their runts.  We are not supposed to be pigs.

There's a lot more to this, and I'm not sure this is the right time or place to go on a rant. Long story short, that we're discussing sending pictures as an actual issue in the world of shidduchim, as if it ranks anywhere in the top 50 of real problems, is baffling to me.

[Lurker]

When faced with 2 resumes, people will always research the one that sounds the most like what they're looking for. If that one doesn't work out they'll move on to the next. This is normal human behavior, it's not specific to shidduchim.

I get that. I don't get why "parents are still married" automatically makes someone's upbringing more stable and checks that box.

The people with that preference are misguided, IMO. I know too many families with toxic parental relationships and many children of divorce who grew up in stable homes with great examples of a bayis ne'eman, either through remarriage or from other family experiences.

[Dan]

Teens who were abused have a high rate of going OTD. Teens who go OTD don't necessarily have a high rate of being abused. I speak from personal experience. I lived in that world for many, many years.

Sounds like an interesting topic for a new thread.

[Euclid]

There's that issue again. I want to be clear that anything I've said or am about to say isn't personal. This mindset is a product of a broken system.

False and baseless assumptions, or "red flags," have destroyed the shidduch system. He went to this yeshiva, so he must not like learning. She has an OTD brother, so the family might have an issue with addiction, abuse, or even weak foundations in emunah. This is why we have a transparency issue. This is why people cut off their OTD kids. This is why people don't want to acknowledge or address mental health issues in their families. This is why we have a "runt" issue in the frum world. Pigs discard their runts.  We are not supposed to be pigs.

There's a lot more too this, and I'm not sure this is the right time or place to go on a rant. Long story short, that we're discussing sending pictures as an actual issue in the world of shidduchim, as if it ranks anywhere in the top 50 of real problems, is baffling to me.

I get what you're saying and fully agree.

(In this context what I meant was that while researching and information gathering in order to make an educated decision they won't discover anything that would point to possibility of abuse unless there's a flag of abuse like an OTD sibling. If they do have an OTD sibling, then that's a flag and something that should certainly be looked at more closely to see if there's a possibility of abuse. Not that the shidduch should be dismissed out of hand because of the OTD sibling.

What I think happens is that given a choice between a seemingly "clean" shidduch and one with a possibility of "skeletons" requiring extra research work, people will opt for the former. Like @avromie7 said, this is human nature and not limited to shidduchim.)

[Tuna Baygel]

Was amazed at the amount of replies my thread but it seems like there was a detour

[Dan]

Was amazed at the amount of replies my thread had but quickly realized almost all completely unrelated

Welcome to DDF!

[YitzyS]

Sounds like an interesting topic for a new thread on Yeshiva World

FTFY

[Lurker]

(I get what you're saying and fully agree. In this context what I meant was that while researching and information gathering in order to make an educated decision they won't discover anything that would point to possibility of abuse unless there's a flag of abuse like an OTD sibling. If they do have an OTD sibling, then that's a flag and something that should certainly be looked at more closely to see if there's a possibility of abuse. Not that the shidduch should be dismissed out of hand because of the OTD sibling.

What I think happens is that given a choice between a seemingly "clean" shidduch and one with a possibility of "skeletons" requiring extra research work, people will opt for the former. Like @avromie7 said, this is human nature and not limited to shidduchim.)

I dispute the notion that an OTD sibling should be a flag for abuse. We cry about having an OTD crisis, an abuse crisis, a parnassah crisis, a mental health crisis, a drug crisis, an education crisis, a leadership crisis, a technology crisis, and 10,000 other crises. All of these are causes for people going OTD. In Lubavitch today, I'd venture to say that more than 30% of all families have an OTD kid. I say 30%, but I personally believe it's double that. I don't believe this is super unique to Lubavitch. Honestly, if someone sends me a perfect résumé with no "flags", that's the biggest flag of all. That people hear "abuse" when someone says "OTD" is so wrong on so many levels.

[Dan]

FTFY

It's extreme fake news?

Ywn is extreme fake news

[Lurker]

Was amazed at the amount of replies my thread but it seems like there was a detour

Sorry. Hit a few nerves today.

[Euclid]

I dispute the notion that an OTD sibling should be a flag for abuse. We cry about having an OTD crisis, an abuse crisis, a parnassah crisis, a mental health crisis, a drug crisis, an education crisis, a leadership crisis, a technology crisis, and 10,000 other crises. All of these are causes for people going OTD. In Lubavitch today, I'd venture to say that more than 30% of all families have an OTD kid. I say 30%, but I personally believe it's double that. I don't believe this is super unique to Lubavitch. Honestly, if someone sends me a perfect résumé with no "flags", that's the biggest flag of all. That people hear "abuse" when someone says "OTD" is so wrong on so many levels.

Fair.

(You touched on a topic, probably good for a new thread, that has interested me for a while - 30% seems very high compared to eg Lakewood: what percentage of the Lubavitcher families are baal teshuvas? There's been some anecdotal evidence that BT families have a higher rate of OTD...hence my line of questioning.)

[Lurker]

Fair.

(You touched on a topic, probably good for a new thread, that has interested me for a while - 30% seems very high compared to eg Lakewood: what percentage of the Lubavitcher families are baal teshuvas? There's been some anecdotal evidence that BT families have a higher rate of OTD...hence my line of questioning.)

Definitely for a very different thread, but I think the BT angle is overblown.

ETA: Also, I think the numbers is Lakewood are wrong. I believe there's likely more incentive to pretend to be religious there when you're not, and/or for families to cover it up.

[AsherO]

I dispute the notion that an OTD sibling should be a flag for abuse. We cry about having an OTD crisis, an abuse crisis, a parnassah crisis, a mental health crisis, a drug crisis, an education crisis, a leadership crisis, a technology crisis, and 10,000 other crises. All of these are causes for people going OTD. In Lubavitch today, I'd venture to say that more than 30% of all families have an OTD kid. I say 30%, but I personally believe it's double that. I don't believe this is super unique to Lubavitch. Honestly, if someone sends me a perfect résumé with no "flags", that's the biggest flag of all. That people hear "abuse" when someone says "OTD" is so wrong on so many levels.

Shais Taub recently discussed this in an online presentation, and his take seemed to be (if I understood him correctly, I might be wrong about this) that OTD doesn’t happen in a bubble and all the cases he’s seen were caused by some sort of trauma, not necessarily the classic/literal abuse.

[AsherO]

Also, I think the numbers is Lakewood are wrong. I believe there's likely more incentive to pretend to be religious there when you're not, and/or for families to cover it up.

Are you suggesting that someone who pretends to be religious when they’re not (whatever that means) is considered OTD?

This tangent is really taking off...

[Lurker]

Shais Taub recently discussed this in an online presentation, and his take seemed to be (if I understood him correctly, I might be wrong about this) that OTD doesn’t happen in a bubble and all the cases he’s seen were caused by some sort of trauma, not necessarily the classic/literal abuse.

He may not be wrong. Trauma is a very, very large umbrella. I'd venture to say that there more people who are still religious with those same traumas.

[Euclid]

This tangent is really OTD...

FTFY

[Lurker]

Are you suggesting that someone who pretends to be religious when they’re not (whatever that means) is considered OTD?

This tangent is really taking off...

OTD means OTD. If someone watches TV in their house on shabbos, or eats pork when no one is looking, why would they be any more "on the derech" than someone who's visibly OTD? And if they move OOT and no one in Lakewood knows they're OTD because they play the part when they visit their families, that doesn't decrease the percentage. It just means they hide it better.

[neveryou]

OTD means OTD. If someone watches TV in their house on shabbos, or eats pork when no one is looking, why would they be any more "on the derech" than someone who's visibly OTD? And if they move OOT and no one in Lakewood knows they're OTD because they play the part when they visit their families, that doesn't decrease the percentage. It just means they hide it better.

Well to be considered shomer shabbos it just needs to be beparhesia