Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[avromie7]

Also, is it appropriate for a boy and girl to go on a date for any reason other than considering marriage? I wonder if the Rebbi's reasoning was a teretz, and his real reasoning was that someone who was sure it is a no might change their mind after a second date.

He specifically said that although this is possible, this is not the reason.

@avromie7 , was this advice given specifically to you, or was this general advice that he gives to bochurim?

To me specifically. I'm sure he doesn't give the same advice to everyone.

[Saulius]

As the years go by, I keep on hearing more and more stories of people who I know first hand -- who went out prior and rejected or got rejected -- and then years later - they ended up revisiting it and ended up getting married. One instance, they first met 10 years prior. Now, there are so many singles that are already in the late 30s, and in their 40s - and it's sad shadchanim have to call up and tell the boy -- the girl has frozen her eggs.

I can't imagine that it's hashem's will that people get married so late -- but if there are so many older singles - it must be that people are rejecting their basherts.

Another problem is that dating process itself isn't natural -- one a date, one is being tested by the other person -- and when one is tested - one is not natural and one is not oneself.

And I think that applies as well to job interviews -- There are people who are never able to make a good impression on a job interview - but those people might be the absolute perfect fit for the job. 

[Dan]

Did he automatically assume it must have been his looks? Why do you have to do something wrong for the other person to know it won't work? Feelings get hurt during dating, and obviously, it's best to be as sensitive as possible. But forcing someone to date when you know with certainty it's not going to work is not being kind. For many dating is highly stressful, not to mention time-consuming. A meaningless and unnecessary date is leading that person on, wasting their time, and emotionally taxing. All because the guy thinks the woman will think of no other reason he would say no besides looks? I dunno man. If that guy was given a second date and subsequently found out it was just to be nice, wouldn't he feel much worse?

As a born introvert with no sisters, I was a terrible first date.
Wasn't surprised that I didn't get a 2nd date after flying to a girl in LA, as my first dating experience.

My wife got better advice, give the guy a 2nd chance. After all, he flew to Kansas City to see you and it's your first time dating! The rest is history.

I guess my point is, things can change a lot more than you think from date 1 to date 2. I don't think that means you need to give a 2nd date, but don't be quick to just write it off. Giving a so called pity date may just alter the course of history.

[zh cohen]

If a woman said no after one date would you be offended?

I think women are generally more likely to be self conscious about their looks than men, and @avromie7 is saying that those who are rejected based on their looks are even more likely to have this issue.

[Saulius]

A no after 1 date can be hurtful for anyone. A girl whose looks are the reason many boys say no, will get a no after 1 date more often, and she's more likely to be hurt by it.

I got rejected plenty of times after 1st date. The paralyzing pain each time lasted more than half a year -- but that could be because every rejection triggers PTSD from child trauma. Plus, not to mention every time I get rejected - it takes my years till I would be willing to go out again, and then I get rejected again after the 1st date.

[coffeebean]

Instead they should make a kaballah to only read shidduchim to those who will make a commitment to go out a few times instead of rejecting after one date.

Why is this necessary if she/he sees that they're not a match?

[Saulius]

Why is this necessary if she/he sees that they're not a match?

If one makes a kaballah - then one would make ten times more research to see if it's suitable prior to going out.

[coffeebean]

If one makes a kaballah - then one would make ten times more research to see if it's suitable prior to going out.

Understandable to go out one or 2 more times but a few?

[Yehuda57]

As a born introvert with no sisters, I was a terrible first date.
Wasn't surprised that I didn't get a 2nd date after flying to a girl in LA, as my first dating experience.

My wife got better advice, give the guy a 2nd chance. After all, he flew to Kansas City to see you and it's your first time dating! The rest is history.

I guess my point is, things can change a lot more than you think from date 1 to date 2. I don't think that means you need to give a 2nd date, but don't be quick to just write it off. Giving a so called pity date may just alter the course of history.

Like every good JS discussion, we're pitting absolutes against generalities.

[coffeebean]

I take major exception to this and it's one of the things that bothered me about this "initiative." They mention that if absolutely necessary, they'll send the picture to the mother. Excuse my french but what in the living H*LL?! Why does a mother have to see a picture of a girl that her son is deciding whether or not to go out with? Is the mother supposed to be attracted to her daughter-in-law? Is she supposed to decide what her son should be, or is already, attracted to? Don't these people realize that this whole mess was started by ridiculous mothers who started asking for pictures in the first place?

My answer is in your question. The mother is not the one being attracted to the daughter-in-law it's the boy, so for the boy to build physical attraction through a picture, there may be a tznius issue with that. The point of a picture is not a tinder concept, rather to see if she's "normal looking" and or tznius that's why it's accepted for a mother to look at one.

[pbf]

It's saying she's not worth a second chance To You because you're not going to marry her, regardless of the reason. How egotistical does a guy have to be to say about a girl that she's so pitiful that he needs to humor her with a second date just so she doesn't feel bad? If that's not objectifying women, Idk what is. You're basically saying "I be'eztem don't think you're worthy of getting married to anyone but I don't want you to think that so I'll pity you with a second date." What if you were saying no because you didn't like her personality, would it be ok then to not go out again? Because you didn't like how she looked, nobody else will? Do you see how this starts to spiral out of control?

+10000000000000

[Saulius]

Understandable to go out one or 2 more times but a few?

By a few - I meant three. Two is better than one.

[flyingace]

Pictures are sometimes useful; especially if there is no opportunity to meet the person before committing to a date. I know of a boy's mother who vets her sons shidduchim a certain way because he frequently gets no's for the same reason and it is very demoralizing to him. Is she being superficial in not giving a yes to girls who she feels would not appreciate him? Maybe someone will meet him and like him?! It's  not so black and white when people have been dating for a long time and experience rejection.

[drosenberg88429]

If the research has been done right, then there should be very few cases that don't warrant another look.

Meaning that in general, you think that it's better to say no before a first date than after a first date.

Many would take very strong exception to this.

[drosenberg88429]

Lol, the fact that you can understand why not sending girls pictures for shidduchim purposes is a good thing but can't understand why posting girls pictures online after they get engages is problematic is very funny to me. (Not picking on you personally, more on what the general public is and isn't ok with.)

What's the worst case scenario of posting pictures online after they get engaged?

The worst case scenario of necessitating photos before considering a suggestion is that someone who would have clicked with someone in person, triggered mutual chemistry and attraction, and gotten married to them, gets nixed because they're not photogenic. That's a pretty concrete potential issue.

[Saulius]

Reminds me, a shiur back from 2010 Rav Asher Zelig Rubinstein zt'l - and he spoke about Parshas Chaya Sora on the parshas of shidduchim. Sharing the mp3 file -  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yNibp0Q86nJq9QmDsof2-WvOAVOUz0lR/view?usp=sharing

He starts speaking about the parshas hashiduchim at about the 11 minute mark.  at: 13:30 - Eliezer did not have a picture of Yitzchok avinu, no digital cameras, no primitive cameras, no paintings ....

[drosenberg88429]

It's saying she's not worth a second chance To You because you're not going to marry her, regardless of the reason. How egotistical does a guy have to be to say about a girl that she's so pitiful that he needs to humor her with a second date just so she doesn't feel bad? If that's not objectifying women, Idk what is. You're basically saying "I be'eztem don't think you're worthy of getting married to anyone but I don't want you to think that so I'll pity you with a second date." What if you were saying no because you didn't like her personality, would it be ok then to not go out again? Because you didn't like how she looked, nobody else will? Do you see how this starts to spiral out of control?

If someone asks you how they look, and you say "Disgustingly ugly" because you think telling them they look great is sickeningly egocentric and shows that you think they can't handle an insult like an adult, you may be nice and transparent, and I guess you're humble too (because you believe your opinions worthless enough to not carry and weight in the other person's eyes), but you're probably not ready to get married. Anticipating how your words and actions will be perceived and the other person's feelings affected, and adjusting accordingly to try not to hurt them, is possibly the most crucial prerequisite to marriage that one can possibly have. His rebbi was no stranger to human nature when he gave that's advice.

Objectifying women means that you think of them as an intercourse doll, without taking their feelings and person into account. Objectification involves viewing and/or treating a person as an object, devoid of thought or feeling. You said you don't know what objectifying a woman is, so I'll provide the given definition. It's doing what @avromie7 's rebbi said to avoid.

[Saulius]

What's the worst case scenario of posting pictures online after they get engaged?

The worst case scenario of necessitating photos before considering a suggestion is that someone who would have clicked with someone in person, triggered mutual chemistry and attraction, and gotten married to them, gets nixed because they're not photogenic. That's a pretty concrete potential issue.

In yeshivish circles - it's not accepted norm for photos to be posted online after engagement, and often when it does happen it's done without permission from the engaged couple. Average day in Lakewood - there could be 8-11 engagements announced -- extremely rare for images to be posted online.

[pbf]

I have a lot to say on this topic. I am formulating my thoughts....

[Lurker]

I have a lot to say on this topic. I am formulating my thoughts....

Reminds me of a profile pic I saw for a family WhatsApp group chat. It's a screenshot that says, "Mommy is typing...."