Author Topic: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?  (Read 21141 times)

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8427
  • Total likes: 1072
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #340 on: May 06, 2021, 08:38:49 PM »


A) I think you're referring to a certain queen. Otherwise, jog my memory.

B) Yes, clarifying that you have shared goals and values and visions and hashkafos and worldviews and no glaring incompatibilities may not be enough reason to get married, but it should be enough reason to say yes to a second date. People are sometimes tired, nervous, under the weather, or just take time to warm up. Chemistry and sparks take time to develop as you get to know the person, as does attraction. (Note that there is a marked difference between lack of attraction and repulsion.) Marrying them if these things never develop would quite possibly be a disastrous move, but instantly writing them off can also be.

C) Thanks for calling my dating experience into question. Trust me, I've been on my fair share of DOA dates. As the saying goes "Sometimes you meet someone and know from the first moment that you want to spend your life apart from them".

I wasn't calling your dating experience into question, I was saying that the way you were speaking about it makes it sound like you hadn't been on a date IMO, that's all.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shmulie

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1466
  • Total likes: 439
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #341 on: May 06, 2021, 08:43:58 PM »
Ech everyone relax. Most people that yell and scream have 5 minutes of dating experience and no actual idea what theyíre talking about

I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8427
  • Total likes: 1072
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #342 on: May 06, 2021, 08:54:36 PM »
I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 3417
  • Total likes: 3322
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #343 on: May 06, 2021, 08:56:13 PM »
I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.
What about that guy in BMG who wrote a book on shalom bayis and was never married?

Offline Shmulie

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1466
  • Total likes: 439
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #344 on: May 06, 2021, 08:58:42 PM »
I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.
I only comment on what I know or my opinion on a matter take a look at my posts I haven't commented on the actual date part

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4776
  • Total likes: 5238
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #345 on: May 06, 2021, 09:03:19 PM »
  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

If I relied on the shidduch system, I would never have married my wife. You will have to work harder to put yourself out there, but it's worth it. Don't be shy about asking friends if they or their spouses have any ideas.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline pbf

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 62
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #346 on: May 06, 2021, 09:29:21 PM »
As they say, after 120, we all get put in a box...

(I know that's not even accurate.)


One of the most important life tenets I've ever heard.

Always consider the likely alternative before discarding the current option. Will you really be better off?

I may be wrong but I donít think itís too much to ask to just like the person and not dread spending another few hours with them

Offline Ver hut gazugt

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2021
  • Posts: 225
  • Total likes: 217
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New york
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #347 on: May 06, 2021, 09:33:20 PM »
I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.


That is really not the way to do things. I get is scary but you need to put yourself out there into the system. We can all complain but it is better then anything else out there.


Btw a lot of the complaints on here are valid but do not have any easy fixes. A lot goes to the complexities of the human condition.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4776
  • Total likes: 5238
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #348 on: May 06, 2021, 09:34:43 PM »
I may be wrong but I donít think itís too much to ask to just like the person and not dread spending another few hours with them

Not at all. Just make sure to really examine why you would dread spending another few hours with them. The process can be very enlightening.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline flyingace

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1195
  • Total likes: 232
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #349 on: May 06, 2021, 09:41:04 PM »

That is really not the way to do things. I get is scary but you need to put yourself out there into the system. We can all complain but it is better then anything else out there.


Btw a lot of the complaints on here are valid but do not have any easy fixes. A lot goes to the complexities of the human condition.
I don't think you need to go to a shadchan.Many people have their shidduchim redt by friends and family.

Offline pbf

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 62
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #350 on: May 06, 2021, 09:42:36 PM »
People underestimate what goes into years of dating.
People think itís just going on dates. Itís far from that. Itís brutal.
One has to examine themselves, their life, their goals... self examination and work that is extremely difficult.

Getting rejected and/or being discussed for deeply personal is not something most people in other situations have to go go through.

Putting yourself out there to virtual strangers and then having them talk about you is quite vulnerable.

Having the world talk about, judge you for every move is quite frustrating.

Reminding myself of what I wrote here a while ago:

I apologize if I offended you. Again, I can't being to understand your situation and no, I'm not comparing.

However, as a healthy single, I can attest to being treated like a circus freak as well, albeit I'm sure on a much lesser level.

I think one of the hardest parts of being single (at least for me) is that everyone is constantly in your business. Your dress, your demeanor, your speech, your attitude, your middos, your looks... every single thing about you becomes public opinion. People delve deep into your personal character, talking about you is second nature, even if it's positive.
There are constantly people talking about you, talking about what you need to change, what you need to do, what you REALLY need vs what you are saying you need, and the list goes on and on.
There is something 'tangible' to do so people want you to do it. They push themselves on you. They push their agendas on you. They think they know best.
When it comes to other issues, things are much less talked about. No one is going over to someone and offering advice. No one is talking about what you need to do and change. People assume you are doing what needs to be done and that's that. It's not personal. It's not about your character, not about your demeanor. No one is describing you in great detail, no one is seizing you up based on this and that, no one is judging your choices

*steps off soapbox

When all is said and done, it's an extremely vulnerable position to be in. By putting yourself in the situation where you need to be set up, you need to use an intermediary, this is what happens. I don't pretend to have an alternative so I can't bash it.
Obviously, for someone disabled, they go through all this, and then some.  But again, choosing to enjoy life is really irrelevant.

Online whacked1

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 2211
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #351 on: May 06, 2021, 09:52:44 PM »
People underestimate what goes into years of dating.
People think itís just going on dates. Itís far from that. Itís brutal.
One has to examine themselves, their life, their goals... self examination and work that is extremely difficult.

Getting rejected and/or being discussed for deeply personal is not something most people in other situations have to go go through.

Putting yourself out there to virtual strangers and then having them talk about you is quite vulnerable.

Having the world talk about, judge you for every move is quite frustrating.

Reminding myself of what I wrote here a while ago:
Absolutely correct. The frum is set up to be married and if your a single you're unfortunately a no one. (There are minor exceptions )

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 28052
  • Total likes: 4884
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 77
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #352 on: May 06, 2021, 10:29:22 PM »
It's irrelevant if there's anything wrong with the suggestion. The reason she was suggested was because the suggester thought there was something wrong with both of them.

If I'm overweight, and I'm suggested someone where it is clear that the only reason they are being suggested is because they're also overweight, that's remarkably offensive. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the person who is being suggested. It means that you looked at me, and all you saw was a problem, and therefore you thought to match me up with someone else whose entirety you reduced to being a problem. Putting us both in the third class box and thinking that we're therefore compatible is insulting, even if neither of us belong in that box and possibly may incidentally be compatible.

Itís the class mentality thatís the problem, we need to stop thinking in those terms, and thinking that others are seeing us in those terms.

Take the OP, whoís only ďfaultĒ was that he was a so-called working bochur (because he had to pay off debts). The way I see it thatís a first rate guy who takes care of things. So if he was suggested someone who is atypical, it might be because he doesnít fit the common narrative for a guy of his character (after all, he only went to work to pay off debts). So maybe she was suggested because sheís a good fit, in that she can see past that ďflawĒ.

The way I see it, there are no classes. Everyone (including the ďtopĒ boys and girls) has strengths and weaknesses, and they each have their match that complements that. All this class nonsense needs to go. Someone is a great match because theyíre a good fit for their partner for life, not because of their frumkeit batting average. H*ck, if theyíre not compatible then all of that
Frumkeit is wasted on that other person. Frumkeit here is a placeholder, replace it with any virtue, the analogy still fits.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 62697
  • Total likes: 10221
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #353 on: May 07, 2021, 09:10:48 AM »
What is this you speak of? Setting people up because you feel they are old, mature, and wise enough to get married, but not feeling the need to baby and control them every step of the process? That's preposterous.
To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 28052
  • Total likes: 4884
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 77
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #354 on: May 07, 2021, 10:06:01 AM »
To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

To some extent marriage (and parenting) is something you can really only understand through experience, which is why thereís a need for adults to facilitate the shidduch process on the first place.

Offline pbf

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 62
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #355 on: May 07, 2021, 10:15:03 AM »
To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

Agree

Online Zalc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 1600
  • Total likes: 84
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #356 on: May 07, 2021, 11:05:16 AM »


Oh, give me a break. Yea, sure, there's definitely a lot that's hard to tell from a first date but to think that someone is inherently incapable of understanding enough about someone to know that they will not be marrying them after spending a few hours with them is asinine. I'll agree that in a situation where you like some things about them but the date just didn't go well, you should go out again, but to say you always have to go out twice is ridiculous.

You mention 2 cases, one where you "know" that you won't be marrying someone after a few hours, and where you like some things but it "didn't go well".

What percentage of ppl who want to reject is the 1st and what is the 2nd?

I disagree that at 20-something with little relationship experience, you can "know" with absolute certainty that someone isn't for you after a few (usually awkward) hours.
If that's your attitude, by all meant don't go out again, as you'll just hurt her by going on a "pity" date!

BUT, If you are willing to properly examine your thoughts with an open mind, and not take this "knowing" as absolute, understanding that that things you "know" can and will change as you get to know someone better, than you owe it to yourself and to her to go out again.
It's not second-guessing yourself, it's an understanding that even when you FEEL that your mind is made up, that's not always the case. (This is also an essential skill in marriage IMO).
I don't know how many times you've has bad 1st dates, but the above is written from experience.

If the problem is that you have conflicting values by all means don't go again, and try to get better research next time to minimize those encounters.

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 7725
  • Total likes: 1844
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 28
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #357 on: May 07, 2021, 11:07:45 AM »
Agreed 100%. Things are not as clearcut as it seems and many, many times things will change on the second date. There are so many things that can affect attitudes that can change from date to date.

Offline drosenberg88429

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 291
  • Total likes: 441
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #358 on: May 07, 2021, 11:18:55 AM »
To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

It's arguable that as long as you are mature enough to be able to compromise, hear another person's perspective, and work together, there is limited maturity necessary for marriage. One doesn't need to be a finished product, and quite possibly being a finished product and completely mature is counterproductive to growing and molding together. Someone who has been living on their own completely autonomously for a decade will have a significantly more difficult time adjusting to marriage than 2 young impressionable malleable kids.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 62697
  • Total likes: 10221
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?
« Reply #359 on: May 07, 2021, 11:21:27 AM »
It's arguable that as long as you are mature enough to be able to compromise, hear another person's perspective, and work together, there is limited maturity necessary for marriage. One doesn't need to be a finished product, and quite possibly being a finished product and completely mature is counterproductive to growing and molding together. Someone who has been living on their own completely autonomously for a decade will have a significantly more difficult time adjusting to marriage than 2 young impressionable malleable kids.
Agree with all that. But that also means needing to accept advice from others.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.