Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[mmgfarb]

A) I think you're referring to a certain queen. Otherwise, jog my memory.

B) Yes, clarifying that you have shared goals and values and visions and hashkafos and worldviews and no glaring incompatibilities may not be enough reason to get married, but it should be enough reason to say yes to a second date. People are sometimes tired, nervous, under the weather, or just take time to warm up. Chemistry and sparks take time to develop as you get to know the person, as does attraction. (Note that there is a marked difference between lack of attraction and repulsion.) Marrying them if these things never develop would quite possibly be a disastrous move, but instantly writing them off can also be.

C) Thanks for calling my dating experience into question. Trust me, I've been on my fair share of DOA dates. As the saying goes "Sometimes you meet someone and know from the first moment that you want to spend your life apart from them".

I wasn't calling your dating experience into question, I was saying that the way you were speaking about it makes it sound like you hadn't been on a date IMO, that's all.

[Shmulie]

Ech everyone relax. Most people that yell and scream have 5 minutes of dating experience and no actual idea what they’re talking about

I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[mmgfarb]

I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.

[Euclid]

I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.

What about that guy in BMG who wrote a book on shalom bayis and was never married?

[Shmulie]

I'm sorry but if you've never been on a date then, to be frank, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can speak theoretically but there will be a lot that you don't understand.

I only comment on what I know or my opinion on a matter take a look at my posts I haven't commented on the actual date part

[Lurker]

  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

If I relied on the shidduch system, I would never have married my wife. You will have to work harder to put yourself out there, but it's worth it. Don't be shy about asking friends if they or their spouses have any ideas.

[pbf]

As they say, after 120, we all get put in a box...

(I know that's not even accurate.)


One of the most important life tenets I've ever heard.

Always consider the likely alternative before discarding the current option. Will you really be better off?

I may be wrong but I don’t think it’s too much to ask to just like the person and not dread spending another few hours with them

[Ver hut gazugt]

I'm 25, have never been on a date, and never really went to a shadchan, for some of those reasons posted above.  I think that the current Shidduch sytem is broken and I don't really want to be a part of it

Honestly I know I don't fit into the cookie cutter one size fits all category and I don't want to be put into some of those situations that people have posted above.

That doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

That is really not the way to do things. I get is scary but you need to put yourself out there into the system. We can all complain but it is better then anything else out there.


Btw a lot of the complaints on here are valid but do not have any easy fixes. A lot goes to the complexities of the human condition.

[Lurker]

I may be wrong but I don’t think it’s too much to ask to just like the person and not dread spending another few hours with them

Not at all. Just make sure to really examine why you would dread spending another few hours with them. The process can be very enlightening.

[flyingace]

That is really not the way to do things. I get is scary but you need to put yourself out there into the system. We can all complain but it is better then anything else out there.


Btw a lot of the complaints on here are valid but do not have any easy fixes. A lot goes to the complexities of the human condition.

I don't think you need to go to a shadchan.Many people have their shidduchim redt by friends and family.

[pbf]

People underestimate what goes into years of dating.
People think it’s just going on dates. It’s far from that. It’s brutal.
One has to examine themselves, their life, their goals... self examination and work that is extremely difficult.

Getting rejected and/or being discussed for deeply personal is not something most people in other situations have to go go through.

Putting yourself out there to virtual strangers and then having them talk about you is quite vulnerable.

Having the world talk about, judge you for every move is quite frustrating.

Reminding myself of what I wrote here a while ago:

I apologize if I offended you. Again, I can't being to understand your situation and no, I'm not comparing.

However, as a healthy single, I can attest to being treated like a circus freak as well, albeit I'm sure on a much lesser level.

I think one of the hardest parts of being single (at least for me) is that everyone is constantly in your business. Your dress, your demeanor, your speech, your attitude, your middos, your looks... every single thing about you becomes public opinion. People delve deep into your personal character, talking about you is second nature, even if it's positive.
There are constantly people talking about you, talking about what you need to change, what you need to do, what you REALLY need vs what you are saying you need, and the list goes on and on.
There is something 'tangible' to do so people want you to do it. They push themselves on you. They push their agendas on you. They think they know best.
When it comes to other issues, things are much less talked about. No one is going over to someone and offering advice. No one is talking about what you need to do and change. People assume you are doing what needs to be done and that's that. It's not personal. It's not about your character, not about your demeanor. No one is describing you in great detail, no one is seizing you up based on this and that, no one is judging your choices

*steps off soapbox

When all is said and done, it's an extremely vulnerable position to be in. By putting yourself in the situation where you need to be set up, you need to use an intermediary, this is what happens. I don't pretend to have an alternative so I can't bash it.
Obviously, for someone disabled, they go through all this, and then some.  But again, choosing to enjoy life is really irrelevant.

[whacked1]

People underestimate what goes into years of dating.
People think it’s just going on dates. It’s far from that. It’s brutal.
One has to examine themselves, their life, their goals... self examination and work that is extremely difficult.

Getting rejected and/or being discussed for deeply personal is not something most people in other situations have to go go through.

Putting yourself out there to virtual strangers and then having them talk about you is quite vulnerable.

Having the world talk about, judge you for every move is quite frustrating.

Reminding myself of what I wrote here a while ago:

Absolutely correct. The frum is set up to be married and if your a single you're unfortunately a no one. (There are minor exceptions )

[AsherO]

It's irrelevant if there's anything wrong with the suggestion. The reason she was suggested was because the suggester thought there was something wrong with both of them.

If I'm overweight, and I'm suggested someone where it is clear that the only reason they are being suggested is because they're also overweight, that's remarkably offensive. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the person who is being suggested. It means that you looked at me, and all you saw was a problem, and therefore you thought to match me up with someone else whose entirety you reduced to being a problem. Putting us both in the third class box and thinking that we're therefore compatible is insulting, even if neither of us belong in that box and possibly may incidentally be compatible.

It’s the class mentality that’s the problem, we need to stop thinking in those terms, and thinking that others are seeing us in those terms.

Take the OP, who’s only “fault” was that he was a so-called working bochur (because he had to pay off debts). The way I see it that’s a first rate guy who takes care of things. So if he was suggested someone who is atypical, it might be because he doesn’t fit the common narrative for a guy of his character (after all, he only went to work to pay off debts). So maybe she was suggested because she’s a good fit, in that she can see past that “flaw”.

The way I see it, there are no classes. Everyone (including the “top” boys and girls) has strengths and weaknesses, and they each have their match that complements that. All this class nonsense needs to go. Someone is a great match because they’re a good fit for their partner for life, not because of their frumkeit batting average. H*ck, if they’re not compatible then all of that
Frumkeit is wasted on that other person. Frumkeit here is a placeholder, replace it with any virtue, the analogy still fits.

[Dan]

What is this you speak of? Setting people up because you feel they are old, mature, and wise enough to get married, but not feeling the need to baby and control them every step of the process? That's preposterous.

To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

[AsherO]

To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

To some extent marriage (and parenting) is something you can really only understand through experience, which is why there’s a need for adults to facilitate the shidduch process on the first place.

[pbf]

To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

Agree

[Zalc]

Oh, give me a break. Yea, sure, there's definitely a lot that's hard to tell from a first date but to think that someone is inherently incapable of understanding enough about someone to know that they will not be marrying them after spending a few hours with them is asinine. I'll agree that in a situation where you like some things about them but the date just didn't go well, you should go out again, but to say you always have to go out twice is ridiculous.

You mention 2 cases, one where you "know" that you won't be marrying someone after a few hours, and where you like some things but it "didn't go well".

What percentage of ppl who want to reject is the 1st and what is the 2nd?

I disagree that at 20-something with little relationship experience, you can "know" with absolute certainty that someone isn't for you after a few (usually awkward) hours.
If that's your attitude, by all meant don't go out again, as you'll just hurt her by going on a "pity" date!

BUT, If you are willing to properly examine your thoughts with an open mind, and not take this "knowing" as absolute, understanding that that things you "know" can and will change as you get to know someone better, than you owe it to yourself and to her to go out again.
It's not second-guessing yourself, it's an understanding that even when you FEEL that your mind is made up, that's not always the case. (This is also an essential skill in marriage IMO).
I don't know how many times you've has bad 1st dates, but the above is written from experience.

If the problem is that you have conflicting values by all means don't go again, and try to get better research next time to minimize those encounters.

[yelped]

Agreed 100%. Things are not as clearcut as it seems and many, many times things will change on the second date. There are so many things that can affect attitudes that can change from date to date.

[drosenberg88429]

To be fair, what percentage of people are actually old, mature, and wise enough to get married (at what, 17-23 years old?) vs getting married before then because if you wait you'll only have the "leftovers?"

It's arguable that as long as you are mature enough to be able to compromise, hear another person's perspective, and work together, there is limited maturity necessary for marriage. One doesn't need to be a finished product, and quite possibly being a finished product and completely mature is counterproductive to growing and molding together. Someone who has been living on their own completely autonomously for a decade will have a significantly more difficult time adjusting to marriage than 2 young impressionable malleable kids.

[Dan]

It's arguable that as long as you are mature enough to be able to compromise, hear another person's perspective, and work together, there is limited maturity necessary for marriage. One doesn't need to be a finished product, and quite possibly being a finished product and completely mature is counterproductive to growing and molding together. Someone who has been living on their own completely autonomously for a decade will have a significantly more difficult time adjusting to marriage than 2 young impressionable malleable kids.

Agree with all that. But that also means needing to accept advice from others.