Something Fishy's First Trip to Israel - Planning Thread

[Dan]

@Something Fishy you can have your thread back when you actually board a plane to Israel or delete the heliports and subway stations

[Mikes@Micro]

So, once a year there's IDF propaganda, so full a whole year you give them tefisas mokum and free propaganda?

No, I go and Daven at the kosel. And use their facilities, etc. I act polite to the security guards and sanitation staff. I put back on my mask when they ask me to. I also am deeply disturbed when i witness these events or read the brochures promoting them.

[yelped]

It may not be a threat in many communities in the US but there are others where it is a serious threat. Recently had a conversation with a modox teenager who was considering going to the army despite his own admission that it caused his older brother to drop yiddishkeit. Couldnt wrap his mind around the two: "I know this is bad, Yet I know its a Mitva (ie Tzivui Hashem)."

In Eretz Yisroel it is a MUCH BIGGER ISSUE. Yes, even today there are powerful people who would like nothing more than for a/t and e/t Jewish to dissapear and idk Yerushalayim is precieved by the world as say, another Paris?

And I fault the Kanuis for not figuring out how to get along and bring those closer to Yiddishkeit. There would have been options for those joining the army to remain frum.

[Mikes@Micro]

And I fault the Kanuis for not figuring out how to get along and bring those closer to Yiddishkeit. There would have been options for those joining the army to remain frum.

I wouldnt. Have you ever spoken to one of them?
Many try to bring them closer (Hidabroot, Lev LAchim to name 2) but as they say "bring a horse to water but ya cant  make him drink"
Try this book

[yelped]

I wouldnt. Have you ever spoken to one of them?
Many try to bring them closer (Hidabroot, Lev LAchim to name 2) but as they say "bring a horse to water but ya cant  make him drink"
Try this book

Exactly my point. Those people from Perfidy don't exist anymore. You guys are fighting a war that doesn't exist and are missing the boat on the next war.

[Eliyohu]

So, once a year there's IDF propaganda, so full a whole year you give them tefisas mokum and free propaganda?

(not that it's a reason not to go but..)
It's at least once a week probably more  that the kosel is used for a propagandized event. Whether an idf event or visiting dignitary or rehearsals for a visiting a dignitary (or pre rehearsal)

[Mikes@Micro]

Exactly my point. Those people from Perfidy don't exist anymore. You guys are fighting a war that doesn't exist and are missing the boat on the next war.

Could be they arent doing the same things but I think its reasonable to assume they still exist.

I am not sure which group you are lumping me into but currently im just observing.

What do you mean by the next war? Moshiach? Pretty sure we need "one more shabbos" - that is everyone being shomer Torah u'mitzvos, not dry achdus... (re: how to accomplish this, old aurgument if active kiruv is more effective than us Orthodox Jews strengthining our personal commitments or some combination. Compromising on our observence def doesnt work. We dont give "Land for peace")

[Dan]

It's at least once a week probably more  that the kosel is used for a propagandized event. Whether an idf event or visiting dignitary or rehearsals for a visiting a dignitary (or pre rehearsal)

So if the options are to bring more kedusha there to drown out the zionists or to let the zionists have it to themselves, the latter is preferable?
I guess I'm still searching for the logic or philosophy behind such thinking. Or is it something that made sense in 1967 and it's just not being revisited?

[yelped]

So if the options are to bring more kedusha there to drown out the zionists or to let the zionists have it to themselves, the latter is preferable?
I guess I'm still searching for the logic or philosophy behind such thinking. Or is it something that made sense in 1967 and it's just not being revisited?

See this quote:

The author of this memoir is in possession of a privately circulated essay in Yiddish, written by the Rebbe in 1941 and entitled, Cheshbon Hanefesh.  In it, the Rebbe criticizes the harsh anti-Zionist stance of certain other Chassidic leaders, and re-evaluates the passive attitude of some of his contemporaries to the establishment of a Jewish state.  Some translated excerpts follow:

“Just as there are Yomim Noraim, Days of Awe, so are there Shanim Noraim, years of awe…and just as the individual’s special time for teshuvah occurs during the Yomim Noraim, so must the community do teshuvah during the Shanim Noraim…

“…the individual’s teshuvah must directly confront his faults and shortcomings…the community too must address its faults…

“…these are Shanim Noraim…and the community must redress its failure to adequately support Eretz Yisrael…to move there and to develop it…

“In this respect we have all sinned, without exception.  Every party, every section, every stream, each in its own way, did not do what it could.  And some, not only did not do enough, but waged total war against those were at least making efforts for Eretz Yisrael.

“Many refrained from making efforts because of the anti-religious nature of those who settled there…in my discussions with the rav and gaon, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook, he told me about the time he visited the health resort of Marienbad and was approached by a new arrival who wondered out loud: ‘They say that Marienbad is a place for curing and healing, yet look at all the sick people here.’  To which Rav Kook responded, ‘Don’t you understand?  These people are now ill, but with time they will become healthy.  So too will all who come to Eretz Yisrael become spiritually healthy in time…’

“Before my first trip to Eretz Yisrael, in 1925, I traveled through Vienna, and visited the Czortkover Rebbe, Rav Yisrael.  He shared with me his plans to move to Eretz Yisrael with a group of his Chassidim.  He agreed that the non-religious nature of the Jewish population there was not a factor to prevent moving there.  He quoted the verse (Lech Lecha 12:6) ‘And Avraham entered the land…and the Canaanite was there then’ to indicate that we cannot allow the presence of the ‘Canaanite’ to prevent us from moving there…

“…Now is the time for national teshuvah.  Each party must cast aside its egotism, and each person his self-interest, when it comes to the matter of Eretz Yisrael…As my great-grandfather, Rav Yechezkel of Kuzmir would say: ‘The Temple was destroyed because of sinas chinam, undeserved hate; we must rectify it with ahavas chinam, undeserved love.'”3

From here: https://jewishaction.com/tribute/songs-come-overflowing-heart-memoir-modzitzer-rebbe-50th-yahrzeit/

[Yehuda57]

Maybe split the thread into a "Frum Views of Zionism"?

I think this puts clarifying words to the point Dan is making:

[PlatinumGuy]

So if the options are to bring more kedusha there to drown out the zionists or to let the zionists have it to themselves, the latter is preferable?
I guess I'm still searching for the logic or philosophy behind such thinking. Or is it something that made sense in 1967 and it's just not being revisited?

The broom that cleans, get's dirty. It's an age old debate between Yehoshoua who mingled with the Meraglim in attempt to influence them, and Calev who prioritized preserving his own purity and isolated himself to go daven.

Chabad and Satmer are polar opposites on this but there is merit to both approaches.

[Dan]

Maybe split the thread into a "Frum Views of Zionism"?

Paging @Something Fishy 

I think this puts clarifying words to the point Dan is making

Indeed, thanks

[ExGingi]

Maybe split the thread into a "Frum Views of Zionism"?

I think this puts clarifying words to the point Dan is making:

And then we would have a splinter from that thread as to what "Frum" means. 

As long as people won't refer to the כותל המערבי by the name of a Croatian Rabbi, I think this thread can go back to its original programming. 

[Euclid]

And then we would have a splinter from that thread as to what "Frum" means. 

As long as people won't refer to the כותל המערבי by the name of a Croatian Rabbi, I think this thread can go back to its original programming. 

is wailing wall acceptable?

[EliJelly]

See this quote:
From here: https://jewishaction.com/tribute/songs-come-overflowing-heart-memoir-modzitzer-rebbe-50th-yahrzeit/

What do you see there, other than classic Zionism which was unfortunately customary in certain places in that era? Should this be a compromise of today's kanuis you're so disappointed of?

[yelped]

What do you see there, other than classic Zionism which was unfortunately customary in certain places in that era? Should this be a compromise of today's kanuis you're so disappointed of?

I see here a disagreement of the Kanuis, and I say that this Rebbe was right in the long run.

ETA: I don't understand why you are using disdain with saying "unfortunately customary". It is not unfortunate and it is definitely not simply "customary", it is very clearly thought out and expressed, perhaps unlike Kanuis which may be more of a knee-jerk reaction.

[ExGingi]

I see here a disagreement of the Kanuis, and I say that this Rebbe was right in the long run.

ETA: I don't understand why you are using disdain with saying "unfortunately customary". It is not unfortunate and it is definitely not simply "customary", it is very clearly thought out and expressed, perhaps unlike Kanuis which may be more of a knee-jerk reaction.

קנאות is dangerous when expressed outwardly, as it invariably involves criticism of the other, which in and of itself is questionable. The only place where קנאות might be appropriate IMHO is קנאות for אהבת ישראל.

[EliJelly]

I see here a disagreement of the Kanuis, and I say that this Rebbe was right in the long run.

Although most famous for his music, the Rebbe was also a first-rate Torah scholar, an inspiring writer, and a proponent of settlement in Eretz Yisrael and the establishment of a Jewish state.

His activist stance during the 1920s and 1930s, openly advocating immigration from Poland and settlement in then Palestine, was well-known and is documented by contemporary historians.  While often critical of other Orthodox leaders, scholars single out the Rebbe as being almost alone in this political position.

Again, you're saying that observant Mizrachi style undiluted Zionism he promoted is the middle ground way to go?

[yelped]

Again, you're saying that observant Mizrachi style undiluted Zionism he promoted is the middle ground way to go?

You didn't address the points in my post. I didn't ask for popular opinion. Judaism is not a popularity contest.

[EliJelly]

You didn't address the points in my post. I didn't ask for popular opinion. Judaism is not a popularity contest.

Sorry, I fail to see any point you're trying to make then.