Vaccine Mandates

[CountValentine]

But why flights of all things? Why not entry to liquor stores?

It is not just flights. I am for the mandates.

[CountValentine]

If I understand correctly there is a minimum threshold where under that you aren't going to be able to eradicate the virus. And unless the entire would mandates vaccines, countries would need to hermetically seal their borders to have this effect in micro. Also, even if one accepts the certainty of everyone vaccinating at the same time eradicating the virus, there is the issue of what you can mandate for recovered people and kids. Right now I'm not hearing you say anything practical.

No one said anything about eradicating the virus.
This is the argument made all the time about so many different things. If you can't have 100% success then why do anything.

[JlmBoi]

No one said anything about eradicating the virus.
This is the argument made all the time about so many different things. If you can't have 100% success then why do anything.

If it's not part of a startegy eradicate and it's just to increase safety thats a very slippery slope. To entirely exclude unvaccinated from flying?

[Yehuda57]

No reasoning? The more people that are vaccinated the less chance of getting covid or do you dispute that?

How many people die in car accidents? Let's ban driving. You still haven't given any reasoning why flying should be chosen, why people can't be allowed to choose for themselves if they want to take a life-saving medicine, and until what point such forceful measures should be in place. Is the point just to get as many people protected as possible or to achieve herd immunity? There's plenty of evidence that herd immunity from vaccinations is not currently possible. And if it is just to prevent people from getting covid, on what basis are you making that choice for them?

[CountValentine]

If it's not part of a startegy eradicate and it's just to increase safety thats a very slippery slope. To entirely exclude unvaccinated from flying?

The goal is to get as many as possible vaccinated. Can we agree on that?
Now how they are going about it is where we disagree?

[JlmBoi]

The goal is to get as many as possible vaccinated. Can we agree on that?
Now how they are going about it is where we disagree?

I understand that is a goal. I dont think that justifies this kind of extreme measures. If there is a startegy that will enable achieving herd immunity thats something else.

[Yehuda57]

It is not just flights. I am for the mandates.

Ok, so let's take NY's mandate. Someone who had covid is better protected than someone who is vaccinated. The evidence is pretty clear on that. Yet the former cannot eat at a restaurant and the latter can. Then there are people who reacted very badly to the first shot and were advised not to get the second shot (not just feeling a bit sick, but dangerous reactions). They are not fully vaccinated and can't eat in a restaurant either. Plus there is no stated endpoint. If we get to 90% vaccinated, will the mandate be removed? 83%? 96%? And why? If you are going to limit people's freedoms, you better be damned clear what the purpose is and what the actual goal is, otherwise it is just a power grab and has nothing to do with public safety. There's a direct line from mandates like NY's to stuff like this.

[CountValentine]

I understand that is a goal. I dont think that justifies this kind of extreme measures. If there is a startegy that will enable achieving herd immunity thats something else.

You feel it is extreme and I do not.
Even if we do not achieve herd immunity do feel in will cut down on infections and as a result less deaths?
We are all tired of wearing masks, getting tested everywhere we go and everything else going on. We can sit back and just watch more people needlessly die or we can act.

[yelped]

You feel it is extreme and I do not.
Even if we do not achieve herd immunity do feel in will cut down on infections and as a result less deaths?
We are all tired of wearing masks, getting tested everywhere we go and everything else going on. We can sit back and just watch more people needlessly die or we can act.

You do absolutely fabulous at always avoiding answering the question.

What is the game plan? Are the mandates thought through properly to achieve their goals? Do we even have clearly defined, stated goals? Or is just shooting from the hip to show that they are doing "something", while that "something" can cause far more damage (not vaccine related) to the fabric of US democracy.

[JlmBoi]

You feel it is extreme and I do not.
Even if we do not achieve herd immunity do feel in will cut down on infections and as a result less deaths?
We are all tired of wearing masks, getting tested everywhere we go and everything else going on. We can sit back and just watch more people needlessly die or we can act.

Why in every other such situation is the policy to lightly incentivize at most but when it covid somehow its taken as a given that I have to wear a mask to protect the guy next to me who didn't want to vaccinate.
Do you trust the government so much that you would let them in your kitchen because they asked nicely and promised not to disturb you in the dining room?
Companies can make their policies, people can chose what to do, but mandates are not something to use to lessen risk.

[CountValentine]

Ok, so let's take NY's mandate. Someone who had covid is better protected than someone who is vaccinated. The evidence is pretty clear on that. Yet the former cannot eat at a restaurant and the latter can. Then there are people who reacted very badly to the first shot and were advised not to get the second shot (not just feeling a bit sick, but dangerous reactions). They are not fully vaccinated and can't eat in a restaurant either.

Finally valid points without the BS.
I have said numerous times they need to factor in natural immunity. Natural immunity is real and they need to incorporate that into the plan. IMHO the reason they don't is because of the idiots who will they will just get say I will get covid instead on the vaccine.
They do offer exemptions from getting vaccinated. Religious, dangerous reactions and others.

[AsherO]

Ok, so let's take NY's mandate. Someone who had covid is better protected than someone who is vaccinated. The evidence is pretty clear on that.

Only partially true considering that many recovered NYers had COVID 18+ months ago and their immunity may have waned. The average 2nd mRNA dose is probably ~6 months or less, and thus likely to still have high vaccine antibodies.

[JlmBoi]

If you are going to limit people's freedoms, you better be damned clear what the purpose is and what the actual goal is, otherwise it is just a power grab and has nothing to do with public safety. this.

This.
The fact that people accept these things quietly with no pushback as to what the strategy/plan/endgame is, is unbelievable.
My opinion of Australia and its citizens is at a all time low (not that it was sky high to start with).

[Yehuda57]

Only partially true considering that many recovered NYers had COVID 18+ months ago and their immunity may have waned. The average 2nd mRNA dose is probably ~6 months or less, and thus likely to still have high vaccine antibodies.

Our communal anecdotal evidence is vast enough to be significant, and natural immunity is faring far better than vaccination, and it isn't particularly close.

[aygart]

Our communal anecdotal evidence is vast enough to be significant, and natural immunity is faring far better than vaccination, and it isn't particularly close.

I don't think this is so clear at all

[Yehuda57]

Finally valid points without the BS.
I have said numerous times they need to factor in natural immunity. Natural immunity is real and they need to incorporate that into the plan. IMHO the reason they don't is because of the idiots who will they will just get say I will get covid instead on the vaccine.
They do offer exemptions from getting vaccinated. Religious, dangerous reactions and others.

It's all very well that you are pro taking all kinds of immunity into account, but to date which mandate has done that? In the Talmud there's a saying that we don't make rules to account for fools. If someone wants to purposefully contract covid to avoid getting the shot, you can't screw around with the rest of society on their account.

Regarding exemptions, what you are saying doesn't fly with the facts on the ground. Plenty of people have real difficulty getting those exemptions, and some have already lost their jobs.

And this still doesn't deal with the primary issue of infringing on freedoms without sound public health reasoning, a concrete plan, and no indication that it is no more than a power grab that will lead to more of the same from the ruling class.

[aygart]

It is not just flights. I am for the mandates.

Very good but this disjointed policy of randomly choosing one industry to police it while others are free is ridiculous and probably unconstitutional. That the go to industries are the ones hurt most by the pandemic is simply immoral.

[CountValentine]

Companies can make their policies, people can chose what to do, but mandates are not something to use to lessen risk.

So getting children vaccinated for school does not lower risk? That is a massive mandate.

[CountValentine]

Very good but this disjointed policy of randomly choosing one industry to police it while others are free is ridiculous and probably unconstitutional. That the go to industries are the ones hurt most by the pandemic is simply immoral.

We will not agree and the best solution is to let SCOTUS decide.

[CountValentine]

Chaim is tired from the wheel. 
1 - This is a public health issue
2 - Vaccinations save lives
3 - The more people that are vaccinated the more lives will be saved
4 - Mandates get more people vaccinated
5 - Mandates result in lives being saved

Now we can go in circles all you want but those facts will not change.