Author Topic: Vaccine Mandates  (Read 4332 times)

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2021, 09:18:22 AM »


Nothing about worthy. If unvaccinated are more likely to become seriously ill and die then that is not discrimination.

I don't think thats a fact. Im sure it differs based on different factors. In a situation where thats right then I agree. I think it's very dangerous to make that a blanket statement.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #81 on: September 10, 2021, 09:21:20 AM »

I don't think thats a fact. Im sure it differs based on different factors. In a situation where thats right then I agree. I think it's very dangerous to make that a blanket statement.
...and saying "age" is also a blanket statement.

Back to what started this. The response to my original post where I acknowledged this wouldn't happen was not a sarcastic response? 
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #82 on: September 10, 2021, 09:24:13 AM »
...and saying "age" is also a blanket statement.

Back to what started this. The response to my original post where I acknowledged this wouldn't happen was not a sarcastic response?
Age was used in Italy as a blanket measure of survival chance. That might be needed in desperate times, if vax status has the same level of correlation then I guess it's the same as that.

I think the response was sarcastic. Was your comment sarcastic or serious?
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #83 on: September 10, 2021, 09:27:38 AM »
Was your comment sarcastic or serious?
Little of both leading towards serious.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2021, 09:29:54 AM »
Nothing about worthy. If unvaccinated are more likely to become seriously ill and die then that is not discrimination. Treat the the vaccinated first who have a better chance of survival. Same as the young have a better chance vs the elderly.
Once they contacted covid and are at the point of hospitalization is there really a difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yzj

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2021, 09:32:30 AM »
Then please explain how because I don't see it
Iím not getting your position. Are you trying to differentiate between an unvaccinated individual and the others by saying that the unvaccinated has a terrorist-victim relationship with the vaccinated individual next to him vying for the hospital bed, while the others are simply victims of their own poor choices?

It is highly unlikely that there is any direct connection or chain of transmission between the unvaccinated individual and the vaccinated one next to him. Would you advocate that a hospital prioritize one accident victim by excluding the guilty party in a completely unrelated accident because one is a ďvictimĒ and the other failed to yield in his separate collision?

Additionally, some are advocating excluding the unvaccinated as morally defensible by serving as a deterrent to others, thereby saving lives. The same case could be made with all the examples I mentioned above which would take us to an admittedly absurd conclusion.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #86 on: September 10, 2021, 09:34:07 AM »
Once they contacted covid and are at the point of hospitalization is there really a difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated?
Not sure but "point of hospitalization" can mean many things.
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Offline yzj

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #87 on: September 10, 2021, 09:35:23 AM »
Nothing about worthy. If unvaccinated are more likely to become seriously ill and die then that is not discrimination. Treat the the vaccinated first who have a better chance of survival. Same as the young have a better chance vs the elderly.
Perhaps the unvaccinated should be prioritized for admissions and staff resources since they are more likely to need life saving interventions than the vaccinated.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 09:43:43 AM by yzj »

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #88 on: September 10, 2021, 09:38:10 AM »
Perhaps the unvaccinated should be prioritized for admissions and staff resources since they are more likely to need life saving interventions than the unvaccinated.
Last word should be vaccinated?
That is not how hospitals work AFAIK.
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Online aygart

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #89 on: September 10, 2021, 09:39:38 AM »
Iím not getting your position. Are you trying to differentiate between an unvaccinated individual and the others by saying that the unvaccinated has a terrorist-victim relationship with the vaccinated individual next to him vying for the hospital bed, while the others are simply victims of their own poor choices?

It is highly unlikely that there is any direct connection or chain of transmission between the unvaccinated individual and the vaccinated one next to him. Would you advocate that a hospital prioritize one accident victim by excluding the guilty party in a completely unrelated accident because one is a ďvictimĒ and the other failed to yield in his separate collision?

Additionally, some are advocating excluding the unvaccinated as morally defensible by serving as a deterrent to others, thereby saving lives. The same case could be made with all the examples I mentioned above which would take us to an admittedly absurd conclusion.
I am not the one who led this to criminals and victims you are.

Are you differentiating between a terrorist and the victims of his attack and the victims of a different simultaneous attack?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yzj

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #90 on: September 10, 2021, 09:49:58 AM »
I am not the one who led this to criminals and victims you are.

Are you differentiating between a terrorist and the victims of his attack and the victims of a different simultaneous attack?

Assuming that a terrorist who deliberately sets out to maim and kill who is injured in his own attack deserves to be treated (highly debatable IMO) then no, I donít think an unrelated victim should have priority any more than a drug OD victim vying for the terrorists bed. Neither are related.

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2021, 09:57:58 AM »
The Republican National Committee (RNC) has vowed to sue the Biden administration over its COVID-19 vaccine and testing mandate. 

"Joe Biden told Americans when he was elected that he would not impose vaccine mandates. He lied. Now small businesses, workers, and families across the country will pay the price. Like many Americans, I am pro-vaccine and anti-mandate," RNC chairwoman Ronna McDaniel said in a statement Thursday.

"Many small businesses and workers do not have the money or legal resources to fight Biden's unconstitutional actions and authoritarian decrees," she continued, "but when his decree goes into effect, the RNC will sue the administration to protect Americans and their liberties."


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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #92 on: September 10, 2021, 09:59:45 AM »
Assuming that a terrorist who deliberately sets out to maim and kill who is injured in his own attack deserves to be treated (highly debatable IMO) then no, I donít think an unrelated victim should have priority any more than a drug OD victim vying for the terrorists bed. Neither are related.
So now you are also making lines and the only question  is where you draw them. How about someone hit by a falling tree over someone who went down Niagara in a barrel?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yzj

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #93 on: September 10, 2021, 10:18:25 AM »
So now you are also making lines and the only question  is where you draw them. How about someone hit by a falling tree over someone who went down Niagara in a barrel?
You lost me. Iím saying that once someone deserves to be treated there should be no priority given to any other unrelated victim or individual.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #94 on: September 10, 2021, 11:01:03 AM »
Once they contacted covid and are at the point of hospitalization is there really a difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated?

Definitely. Look at recent Israeli deaths vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #95 on: September 10, 2021, 11:04:11 AM »

I don't think thats a fact. Im sure it differs based on different factors. In a situation where thats right then I agree. I think it's very dangerous to make that a blanket statement.

Itís a fact, do some research and tell us if youíve identified any other factors, those researching this and reported that vaxxed fared through hospitalization better than unvaxxed havenít identified any such factors (other than age, but for any given age bracket the vaxxed > unvaxxed advantage stands).

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #96 on: September 10, 2021, 11:08:17 AM »
Medical ethics has been a concern for as long as medicine has existed. We have transplant committees that prioritize certain patients every day. The "don't treat the unvaccinated" is not a medical ethics question in the USA, as there have not been places that had to make such choices. FWIU, stories about full hospitals without enough beds have turned out to be bogus (like the gunshot victims being turned away because hospitals were full of patients sick from animal ivermectin). In Italy hospitals were actually full, there weren't enough beds and they had to make such choices.
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Offline S209

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #97 on: September 10, 2021, 11:11:19 AM »
I don't think there is a rule that would let them discriminate based on that. Most probably age or chance if survival. Whether they would make their own decisions in that situation is something else entirely.
Actually, the law is back and forth on this and the issue has been hotly debated. Itís certainly not as clear cut as you think.

https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/health-and-science/the-victim-or-the-terrorist-who-gets-treated-first-446297
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #98 on: September 10, 2021, 11:15:44 AM »
Actually, the law is back and forth on this and the issue has been hotly debated. Itís certainly not as clear cut as you think.

https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/health-and-science/the-victim-or-the-terrorist-who-gets-treated-first-446297
Nothing here talk about the law.
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Offline yzj

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #99 on: September 10, 2021, 11:16:34 AM »
Medical ethics has been a concern for as long as medicine has existed. We have transplant committees that prioritize certain patients every day. The "don't treat the unvaccinated" is not a medical ethics question in the USA, as there have not been places that had to make such choices. FWIU, stories about full hospitals without enough beds have turned out to be bogus (like the gunshot victims being turned away because hospitals were full of patients sick from animal ivermectin). In Italy hospitals were actually full, there weren't enough beds and they had to make such choices.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/if-covid-vaccine-refusers-are-turned-away-hospitals-doctor-offices-ncna1277475