Author Topic: Vaccine Mandates  (Read 73844 times)

Online yungermanchik

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #840 on: December 29, 2021, 02:27:06 PM »
That is your view and I would expect no different.
All religions have issues. Some just don't want to acknowledge that.
The issue is when someone lives according to the Torah but then pretends a fetus is a human life, I then will call them out.
I asked a certain member (not you) a few times if according to the Torah if human life begins at birth and he will not answer it.
Either I am wrong about that, and he can correct me, or he is being ...
My understanding (based on the responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein* and what I have heard from his son) is that at conception, it is a human life, but a diminished one, such that a Jew is not liable to the death penalty for ending, despite the fact that he has violated the prohibition of murder. This is similar to a different law that one who kills a Treifah, one who has a wound/malady which would not allow them to live out the year, is a murderer, yet not liable for the death penalty.

*One of the great halachic decisors of the previous generation, there are others who disagree with his understanding.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #841 on: December 29, 2021, 02:29:33 PM »
My understanding (based on the responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein* and what I have heard from his son) is that at conception, it is a human life, but a diminished one, such that a Jew is not liable to the death penalty for ending, despite the fact that he has violated the prohibition of murder. This is similar to a different law that one who kills a Treifah, one who has a wound/malady which would not allow them to live out the year, is a murderer, yet not liable for the death penalty.

*One of the great halachic decisors of the previous generation, there are others who disagree with his understanding.
Thank you. Is it true you are not allowed to take you human life to save another? Also, an unborn is allowed to be aborted to save the mother?
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #842 on: December 29, 2021, 02:47:05 PM »
Iím not sure itís helpful to think of it as a conflict between protecting myself vs protecting others.  Rather, covid is a disease of society and our overall goal is to decrease the amount of covid disease in society as a whole.
 
Of course, of all the people who make up a society, thereís one that Iím particularly partial to, and so I selfishly make a special effort to protect myself.  But whether or not I get sick depends on two factors:

1. My own susceptibility to covid, and
2. How much virus is in the air around me. 

I can try to decrease my own susceptibility to some extent by maintaining general health behaviors Ė eating nutritious food, avoiding obesity, getting a full nightís sleep, and also, to some extent, by getting vaccinated.  When the vaccine was first brought out, it seemed that it would protect us against catching covid, but as a few months passed, it became clear that it wouldnít go that far, but would prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death.
 
But the second factor that determines whether or not I get covid is how much virus I encounter, and that will depend on how many other people are carrying the virus.  If I choose to isolate in my basement or hide out in the El Yunque rain forest, then I won't encounter anyone infected, and donít even need the extra protection afforded by the vaccine.  But if Iím going to move about in society, then I really want both Ė I want to maximize my own protection, and minimize the number of people around me who are potentially infected.  I want to be healthy myself, but also to live in a society of healthy individuals.

When I get vaccinated, I contribute to both these goals Ė I give myself some added protection, decreasing the chances Iíll get sick, plus I decrease the chances that Iíll add to the amount of virus in society, thereby decreasing the chances that those around me will get sick. 

The mandate, as I understand it, is geared mostly towards the second point, that is, trying to decrease the burden of covid disease in society as a whole.  Its aim is not to paternalistically keep any one individual healthy, just like thereís no mandate to make sure you brush your teeth, much as we'd like you to do that.  Rather itís to keep society healthy, on two levels: First, to make sure that the number of sick individuals is not so great that it overwhelms the medical resources in our society (hospital and ICU beds, doctors and nursesí time, drugs, etc).  And second, to make sure that the number of virus-infected people who roam around our society are low enough to prevent large-scale transmission to others.  As you note, even those who try to lower their susceptibility by getting the vaccine are not 100% protected, and still could become sick if they encounter enough virus.  This is especially true for those over 60, who are about 20% of Americans.  Also, there are many people who canít get vaccinated, because theyíre under 5 years old, or have some health condition that makes the vaccine dangerous or ineffective.  So keeping society virus-free Ė or as close to that as we can realistically get Ė will help protect those people as well. 

This protection offered by the vaccine extends not only to the physical health of those people who circulate in society, but also contributes to the economic health of society.  An outbreak of covid has negative effects on schools, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, travel.

This is why the mandates were initially widely accepted by businesses.  IIRC it was about 2 hours after Biden's announcement of the mandate that several large businesses announced that employees would have to vax.  They clearly had thought this through beforehand, and welcomed the legal backing that allowed them to try to create an office environment that would minimize disease transmission to healthy workers, by ensuring that all their co-workers were vaccinated.
Thank you for as usual a well-reasoned, reasonable, and thoughtful response. My follow-up question then would be, (not to you in particular, just in the general sense) at what point would this calculus change? Meaning if let's say the data showed that getting vaccinated while still great at preventing serious disease and worse, only gave say a 20% increase in protection from getting and spreading the virus, would it then still make sense to mandate it? What would be the number?

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #843 on: December 29, 2021, 02:50:38 PM »
Thank you. Is it true you are not allowed to take you human life to save another? Also, an unborn is allowed to be aborted to save the mother?
Yes and Yes because the mother is considered a full life and the unborn child is less.This was a mistake. correct reason here
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 03:02:54 PM by yungermanchik »
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #844 on: December 29, 2021, 02:51:38 PM »
Yes and Yes because the mother is considered a full life and the unborn child is less.
Thanks, just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.
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Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #845 on: December 29, 2021, 02:53:08 PM »
Thank you. Is it true you are not allowed to take you human life to save another? Also, an unborn is allowed to be aborted to save the mother?
one is not allowed to take one life to save another as the rabbis said who says your blood is redder than his.
however to my limited understanding a fetus that endangers a mothers life is considered to be like a "rodeph".
a rodeph (which literally means someone who is chasing another person to kill him but also can mean  someone in similar circumstances   ) gets killed in order to prevent his killing of the one he dangers .

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #846 on: December 29, 2021, 02:55:25 PM »
Its aim is not to paternalistically keep any one individual healthy, just like thereís no mandate to make sure you brush your teeth, much as we'd like you to do that. 

I'm not sure this is true. A) There are laws that mandate individuals to behave in a safer way. Seatbelts are an example. Driving recklessly endangers others, but not wearing a seatbelt just endangers only that person. B) Mandates are a political tool, not a medical tool, and plenty of politicians have talked about the mandates and restrictions in paternalistic terms.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #847 on: December 29, 2021, 02:57:03 PM »
one is not allowed to take one life to save another as the rabbis said who says your blood is redder than his.
however to my limited understanding a fetus that endangers a mothers life is considered to be like a "rodeph".
a rodeph (which literally means someone who is chasing another person to kill him but also can mean  someone in similar circumstances   ) gets killed in order to prevent his killing of the one he dangers .
I stand corrected. this is the correct reason, because one is not allowed to kill a treifah to save himself despite the fact that it is a diminished life.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #848 on: December 29, 2021, 04:18:55 PM »
as the rabbis said who says your blood is redder than his.

Reading Rashi on those words in the Gemara, it almost seems like Rashi was a Chassid (as in Chassidic, not as in חסידי אשכנז)

ETA:

סברא הוא - שלא תדחה נפש חבירו דאיכא תרתי אבוד נשמה ועבירה מפני נפשו דליכא אלא חדא אבוד נשמה והוא לא יעבור דכי אמר רחמנא לעבור על המצות משום וחי בהם משום דיקרה בעיניו נשמה של ישראל והכא גבי רוצח כיון דסוף סוף איכא איבוד נשמה למה יהא מותר לעבור מי יודע שנפשו חביבה ליוצרו יותר מנפש חבירו הלכך דבר המקום לא ניתן לדחות:

« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 04:26:35 PM by AsherO »
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Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #849 on: December 29, 2021, 05:21:00 PM »
Reading Rashi on those words in the Gemara, it almost seems like Rashi was a Chassid (as in Chassidic, not as in חסידי אשכנז)

ETA:

סברא הוא - שלא תדחה נפש חבירו דאיכא תרתי אבוד נשמה ועבירה מפני נפשו דליכא אלא חדא אבוד נשמה והוא לא יעבור דכי אמר רחמנא לעבור על המצות משום וחי בהם משום דיקרה בעיניו נשמה של ישראל והכא גבי רוצח כיון דסוף סוף איכא איבוד נשמה למה יהא מותר לעבור מי יודע שנפשו חביבה ליוצרו יותר מנפש חבירו הלכך דבר המקום לא ניתן לדחות:


i dont get the chassid part but could you post where is rashi ,id like to see it inside,thanks

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #850 on: December 29, 2021, 05:48:14 PM »
i dont get the chassid part but could you post where is rashi ,id like to see it inside,thanks
https://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Sanhedrin.74a.20.2?lang=bi
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #851 on: December 29, 2021, 06:04:57 PM »
i dont get the chassid part but could you post where is rashi ,id like to see it inside,thanks

I posted word for word. Itís Sanhedrin ע״ד ע״א.

The Gemara talks about blood being red and who says my blood is redder than yours, Rashi seems to interpret the redness of blood as an analogy for Hashemís love for the Jewish Neshama, and who says Hashem loves one persons Neshama over the other. Iím paraphrasing, and Iím sure you can secularize Rashiís words to interpret them otherwise, but it still comes across to me as a totally Chassidish angle.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #852 on: December 30, 2021, 12:51:19 PM »
Thank you for as usual a well-reasoned, reasonable, and thoughtful response. My follow-up question then would be, (not to you in particular, just in the general sense) at what point would this calculus change? Meaning if let's say the data showed that getting vaccinated while still great at preventing serious disease and worse, only gave say a 20% increase in protection from getting and spreading the virus, would it then still make sense to mandate it? What would be the number?
Is the number a percentage or a total number? 20% efficacy against a super deadly super contagious disease (say, a very contagious strain of Ebola) may still be reason to mandate (youíll save millions of lives, despite losing tens of millions), while even 95% of a relatively harmless disease (say, the common cold) may not be (youíll barely save a dozen).
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #853 on: December 30, 2021, 01:51:36 PM »
Thank you for as usual a well-reasoned, reasonable, and thoughtful response. My follow-up question then would be, (not to you in particular, just in the general sense) at what point would this calculus change? Meaning if let's say the data showed that getting vaccinated while still great at preventing serious disease and worse, only gave say a 20% increase in protection from getting and spreading the virus, would it then still make sense to mandate it? What would be the number?
Your choice of the word "calculus" is apt.  I think there would be a more complicated calculation involved, not simply based on the specific vaccine effectiveness.  I expect public health experts would take into consideration how transmissible the disease is, how easy it is for people to avoid catching it through behavioral changes, how effective and available the treatment is, how much push back to expect from those in society who oppose mandates and/or vaccines, and probably some other factors.

On the one hand, you're right that if vaccine effectiveness were very low, then we'd see fewer mandates at the societal level, and more emphasis on the individual level, making vaccine available to those who are especially motivated to take whatever steps possible to protect themselves, however small that protection might be.

But I don't know that there would be a particular number for that.  Think about flu vaccines, which are 40-60% effective in most years.  We don't have mandates for those, in general, in part because flu is less transmissible than covid and many of those who would be most endangered by the flu (extreme young and extreme old) are able to stay home during flu season.  But there are mandates for flu vaccines for some health care workers, because even though the vaccine is only partially effective, an infected worker could inadvertently transmit it to the already susceptible patients they care for.

Or, as @S209 said more succinctly, it's more complicated than a simple number.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #856 on: January 02, 2022, 12:45:56 PM »
https://www.thecentersquare.com/indiana/indiana-life-insurance-ceo-says-deaths-are-up-40-among-people-ages-18-64/article_71473b12-6b1e-11ec-8641-5b2c06725e2c.html


Might not be representative because perhaps these group policies are issued in industries where one has to be on-site in person and other COVID risks (e.g. in healthcare). A 40% increase sounds like a lot, but it could be (once again) that this agencyís pool of insured people were lower risk than the general population, so the increase is more significant for them.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #858 on: January 02, 2022, 01:25:44 PM »
"Most of the claims for deaths being filed are not classified as COVID-19 deaths, Davison said."
His quote in the next paragraph implies otherwise.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #859 on: January 02, 2022, 01:34:46 PM »
"Most of the claims for deaths being filed are not classified as COVID-19 deaths, Davison said."
Why did you add the quotes? It was not a direct quote.
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