Author Topic: Vaccine Mandates  (Read 72430 times)

Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2021, 09:47:23 PM »
FL fighting back.


Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22077
  • Total likes: 7130
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2021, 11:23:46 AM »

Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2021, 04:01:17 PM »
A federal judge temporarily blocked the state of New York on Tuesday from forcing medical workers to be vaccinated after a group of health care workers sued, saying their Constitutional rights were violated because the state’s mandate disallowed religious exemptions.

Judge David Hurd in Utica issued the order after 17 health professionals, including doctors and nurses, claimed in a lawsuit Monday that their rights were violated with a vaccine mandate that disallowed the exemptions.

The judge gave New York state until Sept. 22 to respond to the lawsuit in federal court in Utica. If the state opposes the plaintiffs’ request for a preliminary court order blocking the vaccine mandate, a Sept. 28 oral hearing will occur.


Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2021, 12:04:27 AM »
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline Kobe Bryant

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 3764
  • Total likes: 2280
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #124 on: September 20, 2021, 01:51:35 PM »

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15788
  • Total likes: 7316
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2021, 01:54:04 PM »
If you can't keep your customers safe then you shouldn't be in business.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline alexk.

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 183
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2021, 02:34:08 PM »
Maybe we should put all fast food restaurants out of business. Customers will be a lot safer without that calorie intake.

Or maybe we should require the customers to show their latest physical exam with their BMI before ordering a 1500 calorie burger.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2021, 10:23:37 PM »
Maybe we should put all fast food restaurants out of business. Customers will be a lot safer without that calorie intake.

Or maybe we should require the customers to show their latest physical exam with their BMI before ordering a 1500 calorie burger.
If obesity were contagious, it would be similar. Since it’s not, you’re creating a straw man again.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline alexk.

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 183
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2021, 11:55:03 PM »
The concern was for the safety of the customers. That is what it always has been about. However…

If the customers  are vaccinated, then they are protected.

If they aren’t vaccinated, and haven’t been living under a rock, they knew the risk of going into the public and what their chances of getting sick were. Yet they made that decision, much like the person getting the 1500 calorie burger. Actually, they probably know more about the risk of COVID than the risk of the consumption of the burger at this point.

So who are we protecting? The unvaccinated who made a conscious decision to go out and have dinner? Who is the store owner required to protect here? To the point that they should be out of business?

Furthermore, I can assure you that most restaurants today require their staff to wear masks. So what is the great risk?

Let the restaurants state what percentage of their staff is vaccinated and you can make an informed decision of if you want to patronize that establishment. That is democracy. Just like if they had a health code violation, you can still eat there if you want, so too you should have the choice to eat there if someone is not vaccinated. If people don’t feel comfortable then they won’t go there.

This is promoting a nanny state and obviously a lot of people don’t have a problem with that. Of course, until they come after your livelihood…



Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2021, 12:45:05 AM »
What I see: A lot of words defending an indefensible straw man argument.

You want to debate the merits of a mandate? We can. But don’t compare it to something that is completely incomparable, or you already lost.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline alexk.

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 183
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2021, 01:53:08 AM »
What is typical of these forums is that when you try to make a point with an extreme example, they will attack the minor details, and ignore the main point.

We have to use a lot of words for those who can’t read between the lines.

Yes, this is the vaccine mandate thread. That is the debate here.

An opinion was made that a business that doesn’t require its employees to vaccinate is endangering their customers health to the point of deserving to be put out of business. Now remember, the customer is the one who made the choice to go to the establishment. They want to remove that choice from the customer. Even though the customer may be vaccinated and are supposedly protected.

 My argument, is that there are many potential  dangers to a customer of which the government does not mandate the business to control a potential health hazard to the point of closure.

If the vaccine works, it is not about being contagious. The vaccinated are protected. So clearly they are not the risk we are looking to protect.

So then it’s the unvaccinated.

But they already knew the risk when they stepped foot into the restaurant. So we are protecting someone who knew the risk, and made a conscious decision that they would do it anyway.

So we want to take away his right to make that decision by eliminating the restaurant. Wouldn’t people avoid the restaurant if they felt that they were putting themselves at risk? In steps the government and tells you that they will decide for you what risks you may take.

How is that different than the guy who made the decision to buy the burger? He knows it’s not good for him, but made the decision to buy it anyway.  Why aren’t we removing their right to buy as well?

Unless, of course,  you don’t have faith in the vaccine to protect. So then what does the mandate do? And why does this guy deserve to lose his business over it?

It may be an extreme example, and may not be apples to apples, but the point remains.

If you are going to defend the position, explain why the business deserves to go out of business. Don’t throw shade on the example. 






Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2021, 02:37:29 AM »

More words? Keep in mind, I never said I’m pro mandate.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yesitsme

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Posts: 5020
  • Total likes: 2237
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2021, 08:17:03 AM »
I agree and I also believe that it's wrong to fine for not wearing a seat belt especially if assisted suicide is legal
["-"]

Offline alexk.

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 183
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2021, 09:12:59 AM »
More words? Keep in mind, I never said I’m pro mandate.
Deflection, deflection, deflection...

I think your positions are pretty evident from your posts, but maybe you should enlighten us. You did say that we can debate the merit of a mandate. Sounded like you disagree with my position.

So you took the time to disagree with an analogy on a position that you agree with ( and didn't bother to mention that you agree with the position) just to say that you don't like the analogy.

Ok...

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2021, 09:52:35 AM »
I think your positions are pretty evident from your posts, but maybe you should enlighten us.
Fascinating. Care to highlight where you’ve seen my “evident” positions?
I think a government mandate is a terrible idea, mostly because at 95% efficacy you’re safe enough without mandating that others comply.

If a fetus is a separate human life, then when a woman chooses an abortion she *is* making a choice that also affects others (because the fetus has no say in the decision nor the wherewithal to protect themself).

If unvaccinated people pose no risk of spread to vaccinated people, then when an unvaccinated person chooses not to wear a mask they are *not* making a choice that also affects others (because the other person now has the option of vaccination themself).

It’s highly questionable if the government should be allowed to mandate laws purely for the benefit of the person keeping or breaking said law. Seatbelts are a good example of a law which very likely should not be a law. The government should arguably not be allowed to intervene into an action that has no externalities.

(The bolder assumptions are hypothetical and for the point of debate. I believe the answers to both are more nuanced, but I tend to agree that we are at a point nationally where mask mandates should be ended but am in favor of disallowing most abortions).
So you took the time to disagree with an analogy on a position that you agree with ( and didn't bother to mention that you agree with the position) just to say that you don't like the analogy.

Ok...
I took the time to point out an obvious straw man argument. My opinion is wholly irrelevant.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #135 on: September 23, 2021, 02:27:18 PM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/313921
I don't know - I'm pro-vax but this seems extreme to me
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Online avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 8188
  • Total likes: 2713
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2021, 08:13:19 PM »
If obesity were contagious, it would be similar. Since it’s not, you’re creating a straw man again.
He did not make a straw man argument, you did. The discussion here has not been about unvaccinated people infecting vaccinated people, it's about unvaccinated taking up space in the hospital. His response is to take any example of someone who chooses something that puts them at risk, should we have a nanny state making sure everyone does everything the government decides is safest, or should people have freedom.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2021, 08:47:58 PM »
He did not make a straw man argument, you did. The discussion here has not been about unvaccinated people infecting vaccinated people, it's about unvaccinated taking up space in the hospital.
-1

The discussion was whether it's wrong for the government to mandate vaccines (e.g. through penalizing businesses) which carry externalities (infecting others). Comparing it to a mandate where there are no externalities (e.g. personal weight mandates) is just plain wrong.

Where is the straw man you are accusing me of making?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 4891
  • Total likes: 14680
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
    • Squilled
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: Official Dansdeals salad correspondent
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2021, 09:32:21 PM »
If you can't keep your customers safe then you shouldn't be in business.

This is the comment @alexk. was responding to.

Offline alexk.

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 183
  • Total likes: 44
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2021, 10:18:26 PM »






I stand corrected on your position. I don’t have the time to give a thorough search like that.

But it is about overreach. You are saying that the externalities are what makes them different cases.

I say that even if you want to say that, which I don’t agree, the externalities are not even a real factor.  There is no compelling argument that requires a mandate to vaccinate in order to protect the vaccinated from the unvaccinated. It is this exact backwards reasoning that have more people apprehensive to vaccinate. No matter how many times they say it, people can’t wrap their heads around the logic. That only fuels conspiracy theories.

Then take that reasoning and apply it to the point of putting private businesses out of business? It is an outrageous statement and should be called out for such. The fact that people think that way is scary enough.

Let’s not even discuss the fact that the USPS is exempt from the mandate. I guess it’s only viable businesses they are looking to destroy.

We will be sorry that we let it slide when they come after Milah or Shechitah under the guise of health or cruelty.