Poll

1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?

Get 1 dose and wait and see what updated guidance says
11 (50%)
Get 2 doses and be done with it
11 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Author Topic: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?  (Read 13857 times)

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #180 on: August 25, 2021, 03:59:48 PM »
CDC (don't shoot me) says you should be fully vaccinated. I thought that meant 2 shots unless J&J would be 1.
As they should until there is research showing that it may be different.
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #181 on: August 25, 2021, 04:00:52 PM »
You know the FDA wouldn't approve a vaccine with 30% efficacy. Right?

You mean like the flu shot? Efficacy "between 40-60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine."
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #182 on: August 25, 2021, 04:01:37 PM »
You know the FDA wouldn't approve a vaccine with 30% efficacy. Right?
Without getting into why that's a ridiculous argument to make, I'm just pointing out that you're editorializing - the text of the abstract you're basing this on contradicts your characterization of it.

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #183 on: August 25, 2021, 04:38:24 PM »
Without getting into why that's a ridiculous argument to make, I'm just pointing out that you're editorializing - the text of the abstract you're basing this on contradicts your characterization of it.

I didn't read this paper well enough, but if you want to understand a paper NEVER rely on the abstract. Maybe after you understand the rest of the paper you will finally understand the abstract if you are lucky. These papers were not written for laymen.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #184 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:03 PM »


I didn't read this paper well enough, but if you want to understand a paper NEVER rely on the abstract. Maybe after you understand the rest of the paper you will finally understand the abstract if you are lucky. These papers were not written for laymen.

So... instead I should've written the opposite of what's written in the abstract, without hearing the paper, as the OP did?

Anyway, there's not much to misunderstand about that line. You're welcome to come through the paper to disprove that.

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:28 PM »
These papers were not written for laymen.
That's why we have members like @biobook
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2021, 04:55:43 PM »
After reading the article:

First comparison:

Those who either got covid or got vaxed in Jan-Feb 2021. Results show that 4-7 months later (June-Aug) there are significantly fewer covid reinfections than vaxed breakthrough infections.

This shouldn't surprise us, because we had already heard that natural immunity lasts about 7-8 months.

Second comparison:
Those who got covid from March 2020 - Feb 2021 and those who got vaxed from Nov? 2020-Feb 2021. 

Again, there were fewer covid reinfections than vaxed breakthrough infections, though by looking at this longer time span, we can see that the covid immunity seems to be waning, as indicated in the earlier post on the abstract.
 
BUT:  Although they say that the covid recoverees came from March 2020-Feb 2021, their Figure 1 shows that the largest chunk of those were in the July-Nov 2020 period.  So if immunity wanes, we're looking at mostly waning immunity for those who were infected in the summer, and presumably those infected in March have waned even more. 

Third comparison:
They compared 14,000 who recovered from covid with 14,000 who recovered plus had the (recommended) one vaccine dose. 

In those who recovered, there were 37 infections, 23 symptomatic infections, 1 hositalization.
Recovered plus one dose vax - 20 infections, 16 symptomatic infections, 0 hospitalizations

So it looks like the vaccine was somewhat helpful, but they say "we could not demonstrate significance in our cohort", that is, they still don't have enough data to say this definitively.

One problem I see with this part of the analysis is that in describing their groups, for "recovered from covid and had one dose" they included anyone who had been vaccinated at least SEVEN DAYS earlier.  So it's possible that it takes longer than that for the vaccine to significantly affect the immune system, and that the one dose could be considered an effective booster after more time passes.

I can't figure out this conflict.  Anyone else?
Results:
Examining previously infected individuals to those who were
both previously infected and received a single dose of the vaccine, we found that the
latter group had a significant 0.53-fold (95% CI, 0.3 to 0.92) (Table 4a) decreased risk
for reinfection, as 20 had a positive RT-PCR test, compared to 37 in the previously
infected and unvaccinated group.

Discussion:
Individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 seem to gain additional
protection from a subsequent single-dose vaccine regimen. Though this finding
corresponds to previous reports24,25, we could not demonstrate significance in our
cohort.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 05:17:23 PM by biobook »

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2021, 05:05:32 PM »
ok, wait a min, why do they earlier say it IS significant?

Possibly because the technical mathematical difference between these 2 groups

Quote
In those who recovered, there were 37 infections, 23 symptomatic infections, 1 hospitalization.
Recovered plus one dose vax - 20 infections, 16 symptomatic infections, 0 hospitalizations

translates to 47% fewer infections, 30% fewer symptomatic infections, and 100% fewer hospitalizations.
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2021, 05:07:13 PM »

This shouldn't surprise us, because we had already heard that natural immunity lasts about 7-8 months.

That depends how discerning you were in your information sources. The messaging that many have heard is how we don't know how long natural immunity lasts or if it even exists so get the shot that we know works and will be so much better that your antibodies.
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2021, 05:12:55 PM »
That depends how discerning you were in your information sources. The messaging that many have heard is how we don't know how long natural immunity lasts or if it even exists so get the shot that we know works and will be so much better that your antibodies.
I meant that in the last few weeks we've been given a figure like this, though as you say, for the previous year and a half we had no idea how long immunity would last.


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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2021, 05:14:29 PM »
Possibly because the technical mathematical difference between these 2 groups

translates to 47% fewer infections, 30% fewer symptomatic infections, and 100% fewer hospitalizations.
But "significant" in scientific papers is used to mean statistically significant, and in the discussion they say it's not significant. 

Sorry, I'm not able to figure this out.  Anyone else?

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2021, 05:15:07 PM »
In the US prior infections are ignored.

In Israel, it was recommended that previously infected get one dose. IDK what the official recommendation is now that they are recommending a booster shot.

They seem to be making stuff up as they go along.

I know that you have gotten only one dose and have tested for antibodies after. I presume that it is possible for labs to measure natural antibodies and the spike antibodies from mRNA vaccines individually. Is that actually done in the standard tests? Has anyone done that for research purposes? @biobook
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2021, 05:18:50 PM »
I presume that it is possible for labs to measure natural antibodies and the spike antibodies from mRNA vaccines individually. Is that actually done in the standard tests?

Partially discussed here:

Previously, people were able to take an antibodies test to find out if they had Covid. Is there a way to determine if a vaccinated person had Covid, post facto?

It was when we were discussing the Labcorp/Roche test.  They do offer both the S and N antibody tests to providers.  Covid infection should produce both S and N, and vaccination should produce only S.  IIUC
https://www.labcorp.com/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/providers/antibody-test

Confirmed:

https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164068/sars-cov-2-antibodies-nucleocapsid

Note: This assay will not detect antibodies induced by currently available SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.

I took test (Labcorp test 164068 by Roche) originally last June.

I took 164090 this year. That's the spike antibody test that measures vaccine antibodies.

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2021, 05:25:47 PM »
I know that you have gotten only one dose and have tested for antibodies after. I presume that it is possible for labs to measure natural antibodies and the spike antibodies from mRNA vaccines individually. Is that actually done in the standard tests? Has anyone done that for research purposes? @biobook

But wouldn’t vaccines boost the “natural immunity” antibodies as well?

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2021, 05:31:15 PM »
But wouldn’t vaccines boost the “natural immunity” antibodies as well?
I would imagine that mRNA vaccines will not because it is not a full viral chain.
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2021, 05:32:03 PM »
Partially discussed here:


Based on this we should be able to know pretty well whether a person still has some natural immunity even if they got the vaccine.
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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #196 on: August 25, 2021, 05:34:19 PM »
But wouldn’t vaccines boost the “natural immunity” antibodies as well?
"Natural immunity" has been used to mean different things over the years, most recently,  immunity after natural infection.  After covid infection there are a variety of antibodies produced to different parts of the virus, with the most common being against the Spike and N proteins.  Because of that, the vaccine was made with mRNA that can produce antibodies against Spike.  So the vaccine boosts production of one type of antibody that is also produced in the natural infection.

Natural infection - S and N antibodies
Vaccine - S antibodies

So a test for N antibodies should be positive only in someone who had covid, whether or not they were vaccinated.

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #197 on: August 25, 2021, 05:45:52 PM »

I'm in the statistics business
Hey @Toasted !  I'm lost.  Could you stop by and explain the statistics in the article above.  See the last part of
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=123776.msg2491027#msg2491027

and the original article is linked here:
BREAKING:

Israeli study finds that vaccination for previously infected people doesn't make a big difference.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf+html

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2021, 06:00:53 PM »
"Natural immunity" has been used to mean different things over the years, most recently,  immunity after natural infection.  After covid infection there are a variety of antibodies produced to different parts of the virus, with the most common being against the Spike and N proteins.  Because of that, the vaccine was made with mRNA that can produce antibodies against Spike.  So the vaccine boosts production of one type of antibody that is also produced in the natural infection.

Natural infection - S and N antibodies
Vaccine - S antibodies

So a test for N antibodies should be positive only in someone who had covid, whether or not they were vaccinated.

Thanks!

Is the S-antibodies (but not N-antibodies) also for Moderna?

But might the vaccine stimulate N-antibody bump for those with prior infection (and waning N-antibodies) or for sure not?

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Re: 1 Or 2 Vaccine Doses For People Who Had COVID?
« Reply #199 on: August 25, 2021, 06:06:52 PM »
Thanks!

Is the S-antibodies (but not N-antibodies) also for Moderna?

But might the vaccine stimulate N-antibody bump for those with prior infection (and waning N-antibodies) or for sure not?
I doubt think it should because they only include the spike
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