Author Topic: Get Refusal  (Read 74629 times)

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31012
  • Total likes: 7974
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2021, 01:28:27 PM »
I don't agree with it myself :)

I don't know anything about this subject so to suggest a change would be idiotic.

I'm merely stating the if the kesubah requires the husband to support the wife, then that should be followed with the same fervor as deciding when and where to give a get.

I think there are some Orthodox schools of thought suggesting halachic prenuptial (and potentially postnuptial) agreements that ostensibly offer protections to both partners.

Besides for deciding when and where to give a get, BD might rule that Halacha doesn’t entitle the requesting party to a divorce, while civil courts do. If it’s the wife that’s demanding a get and whatever she’s entitled to civilly, while BD doesn’t consider her entitled to divorce (maybe they’ll recommend counseling or something else first), should the husband still be considered a get-refuser?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31012
  • Total likes: 7974
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2021, 01:30:08 PM »
The kesuba requires that a man support his wife while married. Child support after divorce is not included

There is the matter of Kesuba which AFAIK according to some opinions/interpretations is a significant amount of money.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline pbf

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 77
  • Total likes: 164
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2021, 01:31:37 PM »
    I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points.

I don't know how common you think this issue is. Generalizations like this make two massive mistakes. First, it implies that all men are even capable of such a thing. Second, it implies that men are the only ones who withhold gittin. By smearing all men with these assumptions, you're inadvertently causing the overreaction you're seeing and appalled by here.


I don't think is a common issue, nor would I ever think or say that all men are capable of such things.  But it exists.

  • Fact checking is great, when you have the ability to know all the facts. The reality is, what goes on in a private relationship is often unable to be fact-checked. Just because a Rov or a BD was given one set of facts and will vouch for those facts, does not mean they have the full picture. There could be a number of reasons why they haven't gotten the full picture. Ultimately, though, an activist fact-checking to confirm a conclusion they've already reached is less than 100% trustworthy.

I don't care what goes in a private relationship. If a man has been called to BD multiple times and won't show up, I am not interested in hearing anything else. Full stop.

  • You'll notice that all the stories you've been reading are about women who have been refused gittin. Much like BLM narratives, where only Black men are shot by cops, this causes distrust and bad blood from those on the other side of the narrative.

Of course, because that's the problem. A woman can refuse a get, but firstly, it's the minority, and secondly, it's not as much of a threat to a man as it is to a woman. 


Please explain what advantage you believe a man has. In the civil courts, the law is very heavily skewed towards women.
We can't fix one problem by creating another.

Like in the rest of the world, both men and women are capable of playing dirty, and both do. Divorce is the same with or without halacha. Toxic breakups will be ugly. We don't live in a utopia.
Agree


Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 5128
  • Total likes: 6394
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2021, 01:36:21 PM »
    I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points.
    I don't care what goes in a private relationship. If a man has been called to BD multiple times and won't show up, I am not interested in hearing anything else. Full stop.
Not all Batei Din are created equal. There cannot be a full stop to that statement. And women have also skipped out on BD.

it's not as much of a threat to a man as it is to a woman. 

I don't see why it's not as much of a threat. He can't remarry just like she can't remarry.

We can't fix one problem by creating another.

I don't understand this response. Please elaborate.[/list]
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18434
  • Total likes: 14610
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2021, 01:36:35 PM »

I don't care what goes in a private relationship. If a man has been called to BD multiple times and won't show up, I am not interested in hearing anything else. Full stop.

This is true for when the husband does not have an opposing bais din. This is sometimes, but not always the case.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18434
  • Total likes: 14610
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2021, 01:38:06 PM »


I don't see why it's not as much of a threat. He can't remarry just like she can't remarry.


It is difficult but not impossible. I know of a case where the husband was given a heter meah due to the wifes refusal to accept a get.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 15091
  • Total likes: 2437
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2021, 01:38:35 PM »
AFAIU the woman owns the assets she bought into the relationship and whatever profits are earned on those. Additionally, while the husband has a responsibility to support her within his means/her needs, she can waive rights to that support and keep ownership of whatever she earns. Please CMIIW.

Couples can negotiate otherwise but a standard Kesuva/תנאי בית דין will classify all of the woman's assets as either נכסי מילוג which the wife owns but the husband uses and owns any income derived (like a lessee). Whether or not the wife can sell it is a big debate. Alternatively, by mutual consent they can elect to consider any prior owned property ׳נכסי צאן ברזל׳ which is a form of prenuptial agreement where the woman transfers her property to the husband, and in return he accepts liability and commits to repay her the full value in the case of divorce. How that value is ascertained is a complicated debate, but the intention here is to protect the wife.

As far as income derived from labor during the marriage, the man does own it by default, but she gets food in exchange, and she is free to withdraw at any point by declaring 'איני ניזונית ואיני עושה׳, which will let her own her income without affecting other aspects of the marriage.


A woman can refuse a get, but firstly, it's the minority
I believe that's not true and there are just as many women refusers.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 01:44:35 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5037
  • Total likes: 6190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2021, 01:39:47 PM »
I know of a case
Think we all do ;)

Offline pbf

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Feb 2018
  • Posts: 77
  • Total likes: 164
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2021, 01:41:29 PM »
    Not all Batei Din are created equal. There cannot be a full stop to that statement. And women have also skipped out on BD.
    100% this should apply to women as well. This is why I like the concept of a halachik prenup. To my understanding (I may be wrong) the couple selects a predetermined BD to use if they should need one.


    I don't see why it's not as much of a threat. He can't remarry just like she can't remarry.
    In both cases of the SY women that were freed this week, the men had remarried. One very well known get refuser got a heter meah rabbanim and has remarried.

    I don't understand this response. Please elaborate.[/list]
    My point is, I know that divorce is messy and both sides can get super ugly. So we can't pretend that all will be well in civil court if both parties are sane, stable individuals.
    But I don't believe the answer to that is giving the power to one side as a bargaining chip. Find something else to use. The get should never be used as a bargaining chip. Ever.

    Offline Lurker

    • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
    • *********
    • Join Date: Jul 2019
    • Posts: 5128
    • Total likes: 6394
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
      • View Profile
    • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #109 on: March 15, 2021, 01:45:36 PM »
    But I don't believe the answer to that is giving the power to one side as a bargaining chip. Find something else to use. The get should never be used as a bargaining chip. Ever.

    You make a lot of fair points, but ultimately, I think the issue comes down to this. You seem to be under the impression that one side has all the power because of a get. This is flat out wrong.
    Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

    Offline pbf

    • Dansdeals Silver Elite
    • **
    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 77
    • Total likes: 164
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #110 on: March 15, 2021, 01:48:02 PM »
    You make a lot of fair points, but ultimately, I think the issue comes down to this. You seem to be under the impression that one side has all the power because of a get. This is flat out wrong.

    All the power regarding ending the marriage.
    In so many cases I know, the women ends up paying out the man for her get. Which is utterly ridiculous.

    Now I know you will counter that by saying you know of so many men that lost their children, had to pay huge amounts of child support etc.

    So clearly there is an issue here and not one I can deem to address. I just think THE MARRIAGE ITSELF should never a tool. That's all.

    Offline PlatinumGuy

    • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
    • *******
    • Join Date: Apr 2011
    • Posts: 15091
    • Total likes: 2437
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #111 on: March 15, 2021, 01:48:39 PM »
    But I don't believe the answer to that is giving the power to one side as a bargaining chip.

    It's already there. The Torah gave the man the bargaining chip. There is no way around that.

    The get should never be used as a bargaining chip. Ever.

    Nobody in this thread articulated a comprehensible reason why.
    « Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 01:52:01 PM by PlatinumGuy »
    ״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

    Offline AsherO

    • Global Moderator
    • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
    • **********
    • Join Date: May 2008
    • Posts: 31012
    • Total likes: 7974
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
      • View Profile
    • Location: NYC
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #112 on: March 15, 2021, 01:50:21 PM »
    It's already there. he Torah gave the man the bargaining chip. There is no way around that.

    Source that the Torah’s giving the man the responsibility over divorce translates to leverage?
    DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

    Offline PlatinumGuy

    • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
    • *******
    • Join Date: Apr 2011
    • Posts: 15091
    • Total likes: 2437
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #113 on: March 15, 2021, 01:51:41 PM »
    Source that the Torah’s giving the man the responsibility over divorce translates to leverage?
    It is leverage by definition. He has the power. Now we can debate how it is appropriate for him to use that power.
    ״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

    Offline whacked1

    • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
    • ********
    • Join Date: Oct 2012
    • Posts: 2587
    • Total likes: 530
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #114 on: March 15, 2021, 01:54:31 PM »
    You make a lot of fair points, but ultimately, I think the issue comes down to this. You seem to be under the impression that one side has all the power because of a get. This is flat out wrong.
    I believe most of the posts on this topic have been solely based off instagram and noise that others have made. The posters (here and elsewhere) dont seem to know people with firsthand knowledge of the systems (both bd and court) and are just parroting viral posts. While there def are some bad actors, the assumption that get is all the power is absurd. 

    Offline pbf

    • Dansdeals Silver Elite
    • **
    • Join Date: Feb 2018
    • Posts: 77
    • Total likes: 164
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #115 on: March 15, 2021, 01:55:59 PM »
    It's already there. The Torah gave the man the bargaining chip. There is no way around that.

    Nobody in this thread articulated a comprehensible reason why.

    I'm out

    Offline whacked1

    • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
    • ********
    • Join Date: Oct 2012
    • Posts: 2587
    • Total likes: 530
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
      • View Profile
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #116 on: March 15, 2021, 01:57:21 PM »
    All the power regarding ending the marriage.
    In so many cases I know, the women ends up paying out the man for her get. Which is utterly ridiculous.


    You know of "so many" cases? Can you define the number and specifics of the cases? Unfortunately I am very familiar with this parsha and from your posts it does not seem you are at all (bh). 

    Offline ckmk47

    • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
    • *********
    • Join Date: Aug 2012
    • Posts: 8032
    • Total likes: 1065
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • Gender: Female
      • View Profile
    • Location: brooklyn
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #117 on: March 15, 2021, 01:59:52 PM »
    to me its very simple, there is no excuse to not show up to beis din when called upon, there is no EXCUSE PERIOD!
    If someone doesnt show up you are automatically in the wrong. There is no being dan lekaf zchus. You can say the wife was abusive etc etc etc..
    Show up to beis din & speak to them, air your grievances or go to a dif. beis din.
    But to not go to beis din & not giving a get you deserve everything & everything thrown your way.
    I am very happy to see that this is being brought into the public light. If the husband has a beef with his wife there are solutions, but not showing up means automatically guilty even though he may have had a very strong case against her.
    Shat if she keeps moving bais dins (because she doesn’t like how it’s going ) ? 
    What if he’s been show up and she keeps delaying? 
    I would think that under some circumstances he can stop showing up.
    My favorite cause: cssy.org

    Offline Lurker

    • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
    • *********
    • Join Date: Jul 2019
    • Posts: 5128
    • Total likes: 6394
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
      • View Profile
    • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #118 on: March 15, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
    All the power regarding ending the marriage.
    In so many cases I know, the women ends up paying out the man for her get. Which is utterly ridiculous.

    Now I know you will counter that by saying you know of so many men that lost their children, had to pay huge amounts of child support etc.

    So clearly there is an issue here and not one I can deem to address. I just think THE MARRIAGE ITSELF should never a tool. That's all.

    This response wraps things up nicely. You know of so many cases where the woman is treated unfairly, because those are the cases championed by activists. This thread is full of people trying to counter that narrative, not saying that the men are right in those cases, but that women don't have a monopoly on the short end of the stick. Those posts led you to say:
    I have to say I'm horrified and shocked at the general mindset here.

    This is the danger in one-sided narratives. You don't even disagree with what most of the posters here have said. Put in proper context, there are agreed upon issues with the divorce system, and they don't necessarily have solutions. But by framing the issue as one-sided, anyone trying to present another side to get a fuller picture is now branded as a woman hater.
    Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

    Offline AsherO

    • Global Moderator
    • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
    • **********
    • Join Date: May 2008
    • Posts: 31012
    • Total likes: 7974
    • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
      • View Profile
    • Location: NYC
    Re: Get Refusal
    « Reply #119 on: March 15, 2021, 02:01:15 PM »
    It is leverage by definition. He has the power. Now we can debate how it is appropriate for him to use that power.

    What there’s no way around is that the Torah gave the man the responsibility (call it “power” if you want) to divorce. And that is potential for leverage. It isn’t cut and dry that he’s halachically allowed to exercise that leverage to any extent he’d like, as a bargaining chip.
    DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)