Get Refusal

[PlatinumGuy]

What there’s no way around is that the Torah gave the man the responsibility (call it “power” if you want) to divorce. And that is potential for leverage. It isn’t cut and dry that he’s halachically allowed to exercise that leverage to any extent he’d like, as a bargaining chip.

True, although generally speaking any issue for him to exercise the leverage will be moral and not purely halachic. No less important, just much more difficult to define.

[AsherO]

True, although generally speaking any issue for him to exercise the leverage will be moral and not purely halachic. No less important, just much more difficult to define.

I’m not sure that’s the case. There’s a mitzvah (קיומית) to follow the Torah’s divorce process when pursuing divorce. That process is informed by the Torah’s morality standards, and such standards can be extrapolated to cover scenarios not explicitly stated in Halacha. But I’d venture a guess that a lot of what’s being discussed here is covered by the Halachic scope. Not necessarily all chapter and verse in Even Hahaezer, but still within the broader body of halachic literature (obviously with varying shitos especially as you get into the nitty gritty).

[avromie7]

What there’s no way around is that the Torah gave the man the responsibility (call it “power” if you want) to divorce. And that is potential for leverage. It isn’t cut and dry that he’s halachically allowed to exercise that leverage to any extent he’d like, as a bargaining chip.

The argument has been that he can never exercise it, which is wrong halachikly and morally.

[pbf]

This response wraps things up nicely. You know of so many cases where the woman is treated unfairly, because those are the cases championed by activists. This thread is full of people trying to counter that narrative, not saying that the men are right in those cases, but that women don't have a monopoly on the short end of the stick. Those posts led you to say:
This is the danger in one-sided narratives. You don't even disagree with what most of the posters here have said. Put in proper context, there are agreed upon issues with the divorce system, and they don't necessarily have solutions. But by framing the issue as one-sided, anyone trying to present another side to get a fuller picture is now branded as a woman hater.

Maybe you're right, I will take definitely think it over.

But you are wrong that that is what I am horrified about. I don't think women are always right at all.
I was shocked by some of the sentiments displayed, such as the below:

“From the Torah's perspective, a wife is property and a husband isn't obligated to divorce his wife at all, so he's entitled to ask for whatever he wants in return for relinquishing his ownership. The accepted norms of decent behavior evolved and it is now considered abusive to maintain a marriage against the wife's wishes, but that is a departure from the Torah”

“ This is completely hepach hatorah and it's the way feminism has infiltrated much of the frum world.”

“ There is no reason he should be forced to give her a get so she has nothing stopping her from dragging him through the mud”

[Euclid]

Unfortunately I am very familiar with this parsha

Username checks out

[whacked1]

Username checks out

Lol. Although "been whacked" probably more accurate 

[AsherO]

The argument has been that he can never exercise it, which is wrong halachikly and morally.

Has it been? I think we can get better consensus in this thread by quoting sources and delineating what Halacha does and doesn’t say.

[AsherO]

Lol. Although "been whacked" probably more accurate 

Whacked-won tells us you came out ahead

[PlatinumGuy]

I was shocked by some of the sentiments displayed, such as the below:

“From the Torah's perspective, a wife is property and a husband isn't obligated to divorce his wife at all, so he's entitled to ask for whatever he wants in return for relinquishing his ownership. The accepted norms of decent behavior evolved and it is now considered abusive to maintain a marriage against the wife's wishes, but that is a departure from the Torah”

There is no sentiment here. It is fact.

You may still be right that further protections of womens rights should be enacted (as they have been over the generations), but they are modifications and not in the Torah as it was originally given.

[pbf]

There is no sentiment here. It is fact.

You may still be right that further protections of womens rights should be enacted (as they have been over the generations), but they are modifications and not in the Torah as it was originally given.

Correct. Things need to be modified with the times, as so many other areas and halachos have been.

[PlatinumGuy]

Correct. Things need to be modified with the times, as so many other areas and halachos have been.

You may be right. One of the greatest afflictions of Galus is that leadership is rarely cohesive enough for that.

[avromie7]

Has it been? I think we can get better consensus in this thread by quoting sources and delineating what Halacha does and doesn’t say.

Others have expressed the same sentiment.

All the power regarding ending the marriage.
In so many cases I know, the women ends up paying out the man for her get. Which is utterly ridiculous.

Now I know you will counter that by saying you know of so many men that lost their children, had to pay huge amounts of child support etc.

So clearly there is an issue here and not one I can deem to address. I just think THE MARRIAGE ITSELF should never a tool. That's all.

100% this should apply to women as well. This is why I like the concept of a halachik prenup. To my understanding (I may be wrong) the couple selects a predetermined BD to use if they should need one.

In both cases of the SY women that were freed this week, the men had remarried. One very well known get refuser got a heter meah rabbanim and has remarried.
My point is, I know that divorce is messy and both sides can get super ugly. So we can't pretend that all will be well in civil court if both parties are sane, stable individuals.
But I don't believe the answer to that is giving the power to one side as a bargaining chip. Find something else to use.

The get should never be used as a bargaining chip. Ever.

[/list]

[Chapshnell]

Which BD? She doesn't have a right to pick a specific BD, he can choose a different BD. If they don't agree on a BD they need zabla.

there is no such thing as ignoring a beis din, period. You show up & say what you have to say or take it to a dif. beis din.

[AsherO]

You may be right. One of the greatest pains of Galus is that leadership is rarely cohesive enough for that.

Even if Halacha technically allows for reestablishing a Sanhedrin, the many attempts to do so failed because it requires a consensus/unity among rabbis that will likely be impossible to achieve until Moshiach comes.

[Chapshnell]

I have a friend who got divorced years ago. She went to court against Rabbanim's advice and got everything. He lost his expensive house and everything else. He was allowed to take a few pieces of cutlery. Had to move into a dingy basement, pay a fortune in support and was left with literally nothing. He didn't have money for food and literally subsisted on coffee.
In these cases, such a person might be justified if he wanted to withhold. But most cases are not this and we should therefore hear what the involved legit Rabbanim say.

wrong, in such a case he would have to go to a beis din & sort it out.

[avromie7]

there is no such thing as ignoring a beis din, period. You show up & say what you have to say or take it to a dif. beis din.

What happens when she won't show up to the other BD? Meanwhile the first BD doesn't like the second BD so they still issue a siruv eventhough he told them he wants to go to a different BD.

[AsherO]

wrong, in such a case he would have to go to a beis din & sort it out.

What if the she didn’t show up or the Rabbis ruled in his favor but she held onto what she got in court?

[Chapshnell]

Shat if she keeps moving bais dins (because she doesn’t like how it’s going ) ? 
What if he’s been show up and she keeps delaying? 
I would think that under some circumstances he can stop showing up.

so let him share a letter of a beis din supporting his side & saying she is not listening.... crickets....

[PlatinumGuy]

Even if Halacha technically allows for reestablishing a Sanhedrin, the many attempts to do so failed because it requires a consensus/unity among rabbis that will likely be impossible to achieve until Moshiach comes.

Others would say Moshiach can't come until there is unity 

(כח) נמצא רבינא ורב אשי וחבריהם סוף גדולי חכמי ישראל המעתיקים תורה שבעל פה, ושגזרו גזֵרות, והתקינו תקנות, והנהיגו מנהגות. ופשטו גזֵרתם ותקנותם ומנהגותם בכל ישראל, בכל מקומות מושבותם.

(כט) ואחר בית דין של רב אשי, שחובר התלמוד בימי בנו וגמרו, נתפזרו ישראל בכל הארצות פיזור יתר, והגיעו לקצוות ולאיים הרחוקים. ורבת קטטה בעולם, ונשתבשו הדרכים בגייסות. ונתמעט תלמוד תורה, ולא נכנסו ישראל ללמוד בישיבותיהם אלפים ורבבות כמו שהיו מקודם.

(ל) אלא מתקבצים יחידים, השרידים אשר יי קורא, בכל עיר ועיר ובכל מדינה ומדינה, ועוסקים בתורה ומבינים בחיבורי החכמים כולם, ויודעים מהם דרך המשפט היאך הוא.

(לא) וכל בית דין שעמד אחר התלמוד בכל מדינה ומדינה, וגזר או התקין או הנהיג לבני מדינתו או לבני מדינות – לא פשטו מעשיו בכל ישראל, מפני רוחק מושבותיהם ושיבוש הדרכים, והיות בית דין של אותה המדינה יחידים, ובית דין הגדול של שבעים בטל מכמה שנים קודם חיבור התלמוד.

(לב) לפיכך אין כופין אנשי מדינה זו לנהוג כמנהג מדינה אחרת. ואין אומרין לבית דין זה לגזור גזירה שגָזרה בית דין אחר במדינתו. וכן אם לִמד אחד מהגאונים שדרך המשפט כך הוא, ונתבאר לבית דין אחר שעמד אחריו שאין זה דרך המשפט הכתוב בתלמוד – אין שומעין לראשון אלא למי שהדעת נוטה לדבריו, בין ראשון בין אחרון.

(לג) ודברים הללו בדינים וגזֵרות, ותקנות ומנהגות, שנתחדשו אחר חיבור התלמוד. אבל כל הדברים שבתלמוד הבבלי – חייבין כל ישראל ללכת בהם. וכופין כל עיר ועיר, וכל מדינה ומדינה, לנהוג בכל המנהגות שנהגו חכמים שבתלמוד, ולגזור גזֵרותם וללכת בתקנותם.

(לד) הואיל וכל אותן הדברים שבתלמוד – הסכימו עליהם כל ישראל. ואותן החכמים שהתקינו, או שגזרו, או שהנהיגו, או שדנו דין, ולִמדו שהמשפט כך הוא – הם כל חכמי ישראל או רובן, והם ששמעו הקבלה בעיקרי התורה כולה איש מפי איש עד משה.

https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/רמב%22ם_הקדמה_למשנה_תורה_(מסירת_תורה_שבעל_פה)

There are things that can be accomplished without Sanhedrin (like חרם דרבינו גרשום) and there are things for which Sanhedrin alone isn't enough - the Ran writes that much of the Halachic judicial system only caters to the most extreme of cases and is predicated on there being an alternative monarchial system to handle the vast majority of cases that Halacha doesn't sufficiently address.

[Chapshnell]

What happens when she won't show up to the other BD? Meanwhile the first BD doesn't like the second BD so they still issue a siruv eventhough he told them he wants to go to a different BD.

havent seen one "get refuser" show a letter of a (orthodox) beis din saying he showed up to make a case & the siruv the other beis din gave out is unfair etc....

Because these men who refuse gittin to these women are animals & "ALMOST" every time could care less about halacha..