Get Refusal

[PlatinumGuy]

As someone who is BH not closely familiar with this, I read this thread with a sort of "zoomed out" view.
The picture I see is not pretty. What I see is painted in the dark, ugly, and dirty shades of blacks and greys of abuse, aggression, taking advantage of others, bullying, and many other rude behaviors.
And it is so so sad.
Heartbreaking.

I wouldn't blame our generation, because I believe that bad conduct has been occurring for centuries and millennia in some way, shape, or form.

I pray (and hope that you will join me!) that Hashem heal all the afflicted among us, whether physically, spiritually, or more particular to this thread, emotionally and mentally, and may the picture be painted over with the yellows, ivories, and pinks of sunshine, caring, and love for our fellow Jews (and all people). May we all rejoice happily as brothers and sisters, arm in arm, in Yerushalyim Habniya speedily in our days!

Vague and non-refutable accusations are much more rude and aggressive than anything in this thread.

Don't criticize others if you aren't willing to define your argument.

[Ellen]

Vague and non-refutable accusations are much more rude and aggressive than anything in this thread.

Don't criticize others if you aren't willing to define your argument.

I am sorry i wasnt clear. I am not such a good writer. I did not mean any posters. I was referring to the whole idea discussed in this thread. This entire topic. I will try to edit my post
ETA- i tried to update my original post to reflect what i really meant to say. I hope i clarified now.

[Jellybelly]

Vague and non-refutable accusations are much more rude and aggressive than anything in this thread.

Don't criticize others if you aren't willing to define your argument.

Criticize?

[PlatinumGuy]

I am sorry i wasnt clear. I am not such a good writer. I did not mean any posters. I was referring to the whole idea discussed in this thread. This entire topic. I will try to edit my post

In every dispute and in many divorces at least one side will be doing something atrocious, I think we can all agree on that.

Criticize?

It sounded to me like an accusation of posts here of being 'dirty shades'. I apologize for misunderstanding. Other posters did post blanket criticism of the 'prevailing attitude' here.

[avromie7]

In every dispute and in many divorces at least one side will be doing something atrocious, I think we can all agree on that.
It sounded to me like an accusation of posts here of being 'dirty shades'. I apologize for misunderstanding. Other posters did post blanket criticism of the 'prevailing attitude' here.

Why does this need to be true?

[Ellen]

In every dispute and in many divorces at least one side will be doing something atrocious, I think we can all agree on that.

I hear, what i meant to say that since i am not familiar with the intricacies of this topic, i just see the atrocious parts, because when you blur out the details, the "atrocities" glare out at you.

[avromie7]

Yes, but what i meant to say that since i am not familiar with the intricacies of this topic, i just see the atrocious parts, because when you blur out the details, the "atrocities" glare out at you.

When you don't see the full picture, some of the atrocities are just illusions. Sometimes part of the atrocity is one party make the other out to be the bad ones.

[Mootkim]

Whats with this knopfler beis din is it actually refuted by many people? Anyone have any idea why it would be?

[PlatinumGuy]

Yes, but what i meant to say that since i am not familiar with the intricacies of this topic, i just see the atrocious parts, because when you blur out the details, the "atrocities" glare out at you.

Fair enough. There is a famous vort from R Chaim Shmuelvitz, that when the brothers came to bury Yaakov, Eisav held them up claiming he owned Me'aras Hamachpeila, so they sent Naftali to rush back and bring the purchase contract, and only Choshim who was deaf and didn't gradually follow the intricacies realized how absurd the whole situation was and just killed Eisav so they can bury Yaakov without delay.

Why does this need to be true?

Generally, prolonged vicious fights will only persist if at least one party doesn't submit to a reasonable resolution. There are exceptions where both sides are right but those aren't common IMO.

[AsherO]

As someone who is BH not closely familiar with this, I read this thread with a sort of "zoomed out" view. The fine text (the detailed posts of halacha, legalities, etc discussed here) are blurred out and all i see is the general topic.
The picture I see is not pretty. What I see is painted in the dark, ugly, and dirty shades of blacks and greys of abuse, aggression, taking advantage of others, bullying, and many other rude behaviors.
And it is so so sad.
Heartbreaking.

I wouldn't blame our generation, because I believe that bad conduct has been occurring for centuries and millennia in some way, shape, or form.

I pray (and hope that you will join me!) that Hashem heal all the afflicted among us, whether physically, spiritually, or more particular to this thread, emotionally and mentally, and may the picture be painted over with the yellows, ivories, and pinks of sunshine, caring, and love for our fellow Jews (and all people). May we all rejoice happily as brothers and sisters, arm in arm, in Yerushalyim Habniya speedily in our days!

I think I said something similar upthread about how much of this issue stems from lack of mentchlichkeit. You make an interesting and valid point that the same unhealthy traits/behaviors that make for ugly divorces nowadays likely made for toxic marriages in the past, and sometimes in the present as well. And those women (and occasionally men) often suffered and continue to suffer in silence.

[Lurker]

I pray (and hope that you will join me!) that Hashem heal all the afflicted among us, whether physically, spiritually, or more particular to this thread, emotionally and mentally, and may the picture be painted over with the yellows, ivories, and pinks of sunshine, caring, and love for our fellow Jews (and all people). May we all rejoice happily as brothers and sisters, arm in arm, in Yerushalyim Habniya speedily in our days!

You should really visit the pot thread 

[S209]

Whats with this knopfler beis din is it actually refuted by many people? Anyone have any idea why it would be?

Yes, very much so. Here’s a hint: the guy was arrested last year. That’s a siman, not a sibah.

[Mootkim]

Yes, very much so. Here’s a hint: the guy was arrested last year. That’s a siman, not a sibah.

the head of the beis din?

[drosenberg88429]

I hear, what i meant to say that since i am not familiar with the intricacies of this topic, i just see the atrocious parts, because when you blur out the details, the "atrocities" glare out at you.

Atrocities on which end?  What most of this thread is about is pointing out the atrocities are being perpetrated against both genders in the divorce process. There are no across the board victims and villains that apply to every case. Life is more often grey, or black and black, than black and white.

I am sorry i wasnt clear. I am not such a good writer. I did not mean any posters. I was referring to the whole idea discussed in this thread. This entire topic. I will try to edit my post
ETA- i tried to update my original post to reflect what i really meant to say. I hope i clarified now.

What idea? The idea of divorce? The idea of parties taking unfair advantage of their positions and genders to make up allegations and harm the other parties from moving on in life? Yes, it's a tragic concept. The Altar sheds tears even when things are amicable and equitable, and much more so when they are acrimonious, contrary to Halacha, and downright egregious.

[S209]

the head of the beis din?

Yes, Knopfler.

[YitzyS]

Yes, Knopfler.

I don't know him or practically anything about him, but if you are mentioning a time he got media attention, I think it is only fair to also note the other time he got media attention, when he won a US Supreme Court injunction.

Again, I know almost nothing about him, and nothing at all about his bais din. I just want the record on him to include the other time he got media coverage.

[Mootkim]

Yes, Knopfler.

oh lol the "grow up" video! I remember that. Didnt realize it was him. Not a major offense there but as you said its a siman

[S209]

I don't know him or practically anything about him, but if you are mentioning a time he got media attention, I think it is only fair to also note the other time he got media attention, when he won a US Supreme Court injunction.

How many of the BMG Poskim have won a Supreme Court injunction? This is just another example of the type of character he is and why some would not feel comfortable dealing with him.

[Lurker]

I don't know him or practically anything about him, but if you are mentioning a time he got media attention, I think it is only fair to also note the other time he got media attention, when he won a US Supreme Court injunction.

Again, I know almost nothing about him, and nothing at all about his bais din. I just want the record on him to include the other time he got media coverage.

How many of the BMG Poskim have won a Supreme Court injunction? This is just another example of the type of character he is and why some would not feel comfortable dealing with him.

+1, I don't think this helps his case. There's a place for activism. For an Av Beis Din to have a record as an activist seems to strengthen the case for not using his BD, IMO.

[drosenberg88429]

How many of the BMG Poskim have won a Supreme Court injunction? This is just another example of the type of character he is and why some would not feel comfortable dealing with him.


+1, I don't think this helps his case. There's a place for activism. For an Av Beis Din to have a record as an activist seems to strengthen the case for not using his BD, IMO.

Rav Yisroel Reisman was on the filing for a supreme court injunction too, I believe. I don't think people would consider him unreliable due to that.