Get Refusal

[zh cohen]

There's a big difference between it's a waste of time and it's not fool proof.

Can custody arrangements made in arbitration be enforced in court? I remember hearing something about it not working.

[AsherO]

Can custody arrangements made in arbitration be enforced in court? I remember hearing something about it not working.

Might be jurisdictional, same for the courts enforcement procedures and/or willingness to enforce.

[avromie7]

Can custody arrangements made in arbitration be enforced in court? I remember hearing something about it not working.

I believe once it's a fully executed agreement the court will sign on to it and enforce it.

[AsherO]

I believe once it's a fully executed agreement the court will sign on to it and enforce it.

Makes sense. Would presumably be the same if the husband/wife signed a binding document agreeing to such terms (e.g. on their own or with the help of a lawyer) and later want to renege on that.

[drosenberg88429]

Can custody arrangements made in arbitration be enforced in court? I remember hearing something about it not working.

State and jurisdiction dependant. NY does not allow arbitration for custody issues, for example. NJ and most other states do, I believe.

[whacked1]

Makes sense. Would presumably be the same if the husband/wife signed a binding document agreeing to such terms (e.g. on their own or with the help of a lawyer) and later want to renege on that.

If the agreement was signed without the help of counsel, very easy to renege in court

[AsherO]

If the agreement was signed without the help of counsel, very easy to renege in court

Probably, because contract law is so complex that a professional can always find loopholes in an agreeement written by ameteurs.

[Mootkim]

Probably, because contract law is so complex that a professional can always find loopholes in an agreeement written by ameteurs.

But wouldnt the agreements done in any of the big batei din have gone through many reviews of attorneys and ensured to be foolproof?

[AsherO]

But wouldnt the agreements done in any of the big batei din have gone through many reviews of attorneys and ensured to be foolproof?

Yes, I'm sure an organization like the BDA covers their bases here. Some of their Dayanim/staff are attorneys as well, e.g. Rabbi Yona Reiss who is a Yale Educated lawyer and practiced law for years before founding the BDA.

[whacked1]

Probably, because contract law is so complex that a professional can always find loopholes in an agreeement written by ameteurs.

That can be, however I was referring to one party claiming they didnt understand/they were coerced/ they were under an emotional state and not of sound mind etc etc. Even if an agreement went through review by counsel, if both parties werent represented by their own, it is easy to get out. 

[zale]

A big Rov in Monsey who knows the case said they can do this.

I can see the argument in favor of this. (The argument against this is obvious. Siblings can't be blamed for what members of their family do)

Many people who behave badly are enabled by the people that support them. They are not operating entirely independently. If you were to alienate the badly behaved individual from their entire support network, there is a solid chance that they will shape up.

Every sicko that I know has friends and family supporting them, and by extension, their bad behavior. I know a guy (a "frum yid") that ran a ponzi scheme taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from people and leaving them high and dry, never to pay them back. He used the money to fund himself a lavish lifestyle. Trips around the world, expensive apartments, expensive car leases etc. They begged and pleaded for their money back and he literally ignored them. Do you think this guy is totally alienated? Absolutely not. Do you think he stopped taking money from people and never paying back? Absolutely not. He continues to be enabled by his friends and family. They treat him like a good friend and a cool guy. He hosts Superbowl parties, Friday Night meals etc. These friends are his enablers. The only way I can ever see this guy shaping up is if he becomes completely shunned by his friends and family, and perhaps named and shamed publicly so that nobody gives him another dime.

Back to the case of the gett, calling out the family is essentially telling the family to turn on their sibling and alienate him, in the hopes of forcing him to give the gett. They should ignore his existence, and he will feel the pressure.

Based on what I see about this story in particular, his mother is clearly an enabler. She testified in court against the wife, and provides room and board to her son. She needs to be pressured to kick her son out of the house and stop providing for him financially until he gives the gett. He is an insane, delusional man who thinks his wife will "come back".

Just my 2 cents.

[AsherO]

He is an insane, delusional man who thinks his wife will "come back".

If he’s legit insane he’s halachically not capable of giving a get even if he’d agree to.

[aygart]

I can see the argument in favor of this. (The argument against this is obvious. Siblings can't be blamed for what members of their family do)

Many people who behave badly are enabled by the people that support them. They are not operating entirely independently. If you were to alienate the badly behaved individual from their entire support network, there is a solid chance that they will shape up.

Every sicko that I know has friends and family supporting them, and by extension, their bad behavior. I know a guy (a "frum yid") that ran a ponzi scheme taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from people and leaving them high and dry, never to pay them back. He used the money to fund himself a lavish lifestyle. Trips around the world, expensive apartments, expensive car leases etc. They begged and pleaded for their money back and he literally ignored them. Do you think this guy is totally alienated? Absolutely not. Do you think he stopped taking money from people and never paying back? Absolutely not. He continues to be enabled by his friends and family. They treat him like a good friend and a cool guy. He hosts Superbowl parties, Friday Night meals etc. These friends are his enablers. The only way I can ever see this guy shaping up is if he becomes completely shunned by his friends and family, and perhaps named and shamed publicly so that nobody gives him another dime.

Back to the case of the gett, calling out the family is essentially telling the family to turn on their sibling and alienate him, in the hopes of forcing him to give the gett. They should ignore his existence, and he will feel the pressure.

Based on what I see about this story in particular, his mother is clearly an enabler. She testified in court against the wife, and provides room and board to her son. She needs to be pressured to kick her son out of the house and stop providing for him financially until he gives the gett. He is an insane, delusional man who thinks his wife will "come back".

Just my 2 cents.

Pressuring a mother to alienate her son is not abusive?

[zh cohen]

Pressuring a mother to alienate her son is not abusive?

But he started it...
/Winey voice

[yerushabubby]

I can see the argument in favor of this. (The argument against this is obvious. Siblings can't be blamed for what members of their family do)

Many people who behave badly are enabled by the people that support them. They are not operating entirely independently. If you were to alienate the badly behaved individual from their entire support network, there is a solid chance that they will shape up.

Every sicko that I know has friends and family supporting them, and by extension, their bad behavior. I know a guy (a "frum yid") that ran a ponzi scheme taking hundreds of thousands of dollars from people and leaving them high and dry, never to pay them back. He used the money to fund himself a lavish lifestyle. Trips around the world, expensive apartments, expensive car leases etc. They begged and pleaded for their money back and he literally ignored them. Do you think this guy is totally alienated? Absolutely not. Do you think he stopped taking money from people and never paying back? Absolutely not. He continues to be enabled by his friends and family. They treat him like a good friend and a cool guy. He hosts Superbowl parties, Friday Night meals etc. These friends are his enablers. The only way I can ever see this guy shaping up is if he becomes completely shunned by his friends and family, and perhaps named and shamed publicly so that nobody gives him another dime.

Back to the case of the gett, calling out the family is essentially telling the family to turn on their sibling and alienate him, in the hopes of forcing him to give the gett. They should ignore his existence, and he will feel the pressure.

Based on what I see about this story in particular, his mother is clearly an enabler. She testified in court against the wife, and provides room and board to her son. She needs to be pressured to kick her son out of the house and stop providing for him financially until he gives the gett. He is an insane, delusional man who thinks his wife will "come back".

Just my 2 cents.

People are much too quick to alienate family members these days.  There are ways that family members can express disapproval, and apply pressure, without cutting off a child or a sibling.  Providing a place for someone to live is not always the same as enabling their bad behavior.  Very often, by keeping a connection, one can have a much greater influence than by cutting someone off.

[cholent]

There are multiple cases going on now, but the VIN article naming siblings and the rally in Lakewood last night outside parents home can't be blamed on these parents enabling their son by supporting him and him living by them, as he lives in Boca. I also didn't see any local Rabbanim publicly supporting this. One look at the picture published of the family tells you that his parents don't control his choices, because if they did he would look a lot different. It's difficult to understand why it's ok to rally outside the parents' house and publish siblings' info, including pictures of teenage brothers.

[S209]

There are multiple cases going on now, but the VIN article naming siblings and the rally in Lakewood last night outside parents home can't be blamed on these parents enabling their son by supporting him and him living by them, as he lives in Boca. I also didn't see any local Rabbanim publicly supporting this. One look at the picture published of the family tells you that his parents don't control his choices, because if they did he would look a lot different. It’s absolutely reprehensible to rally outside the parents' house and publish siblings' info, including pictures of teenage brothers.

FTFY

[cholent]

FTFY

Thank you, that was much better said

[PlatinumGuy]

Collective punishment isn't necessarily immoral.

[avromie7]

There are multiple cases going on now, but the VIN article naming siblings and the rally in Lakewood last night outside parents home can't be blamed on these parents enabling their son by supporting him and him living by them, as he lives in Boca. I also didn't see any local Rabbanim publicly supporting this. One look at the picture published of the family tells you that his parents don't control his choices, because if they did he would look a lot different. It's difficult to understand why it's ok to rally outside the parents' house and publish siblings' info, including pictures of teenage brothers.

That story is where this whole movement should fall apart. When I first read the VIN article they make it sound like it's very simple, but in reality this is another one of those cases where she doesn't allow him to see his kids, but yet they're demanding a get. This needs to sorted out in BD or arbitration before anyone has a right to demand a get. If they'd be protesting to get him to BD I would understand (assuming all their stories about the attempts at BD and arbitration are true, but as we see they're already hiding half the story).