Author Topic: Get Refusal  (Read 74755 times)

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #380 on: March 18, 2021, 06:44:37 PM »
There was an important qualifier in his psak, that the pressure be beneficial, which you yourself just acknowledged.
Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.
However, it's dishonest to use one extreme example of pressure to discredit an entire pressure campaign.

From this post it seems clear that your concern is about the effectiveness of the tactic, not the morality.

Seems like there's a lack of understanding here.
Beneficial: favorable or advantageous; resulting in good.

When he says beneficial, he means beneficial for the community and/or the cause, not that he is behind any act that would result in her release. Last I checked, he didn't say that murdering a get refuser is okay, even though according to this warped comprehension it would be "beneficial".
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #381 on: March 18, 2021, 06:46:47 PM »
Seems like there's a lack of understanding here.
Beneficial: favorable or advantageous; resulting in good.

When he says beneficial, he means beneficial for the community and/or the cause, not that he is behind any act that would result in her release. Last I checked, he didn't say that murdering a get refuser is okay, even though according to this warped comprehension it would be "beneficial".
He specifically said “beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get”. He later clarified his intent, which is fine, and condemned the harassment, which is great, but it’s wrong to accuse others of misquoting him when the quote was indeed accurate.

There certainly is room to interpret what he said to include murder, except that’s not what happened in this case, and there may actually be more agreement there (exerting extreme justice over the perpetrator himself) than in harassing innocent family members.
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Online zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #382 on: March 18, 2021, 06:49:09 PM »
Trying to see where in that quote I defend harassing people. Care to share?

It was written in response to my post in which I said (with regards to posting pictures of his teenage brothers) that it is wrong even if it works.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #383 on: March 18, 2021, 06:50:44 PM »
He specifically said “beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get”. He later clarified his intent, which is fine, and condemned the harassment, which is great, but it’s wrong to accuse others of misquoting him when the quote was indeed accurate.

There certainly is room to interpret what he said to include murder, except that’s not what happened in this case, and there may actually be more agreement there (exerting extreme justice over the perpetrator himself) than in harassing innocent family members.

Here I'll help -

is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things).

Basically it has to be beneficial in the grand scheme of things. Not sure how you missed the rest of the sentence, and how you found room to interpret murder in his words.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #384 on: March 18, 2021, 07:04:27 PM »
Want to address a point I saw earlier. Aaron doesn't need to air his dirty laundry publicly, though he has attempted to defend himself, and rightfully so.
But I think it's reasonable to request he address the following 2 questions, and give him a pass if answered correctly.

Question 1. Are you willing to give a get? Yes or no. If no, then STFU. If yes, next question.
Question 2. Which BD do you prefer? Say it publicly and if she doesn't agree to come that's on her.
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #385 on: March 18, 2021, 07:10:55 PM »
Here I'll help -

Basically it has to be beneficial in the grand scheme of things. Not sure how you missed the rest of the sentence, and how you found room to interpret murder in his words.
Not sure how that changes anything. It seems clear to me that OP meant in the grand scheme of things specifically pertaining to obtaining a get from Aaron (which he said). It’s key to remember that we were actually specifically talking about a large disorganized mob.
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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #386 on: March 18, 2021, 07:18:42 PM »
Want to address a point I saw earlier. Aaron doesn't need to air his dirty laundry publicly, though he has attempted to defend himself, and rightfully so.
But I think it's reasonable to request he address the following 2 questions, and give him a pass if answered correctly.

Question 1. Are you willing to give a get? Yes or no. If no, then STFU. If yes, next question.
Question 2. Which BD do you prefer? Say it publicly and if she doesn't agree to come that's on her.

With regards to the second question, Rabbi Goldberg said that Aron sent an email with a list of 4 Botei Dinim that he is willing to go to. Rabbi Goldberg claims that it is just a delay tactic.

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #387 on: March 18, 2021, 07:19:46 PM »
Want to address a point I saw earlier. Aaron doesn't need to air his dirty laundry publicly, though he has attempted to defend himself, and rightfully so.
But I think it's reasonable to request he address the following 2 questions, and give him a pass if answered correctly.

Question 1. Are you willing to give a get? Yes or no. If no, then STFU. If yes, next question.
Question 2. Which BD do you prefer? Say it publicly and if she doesn't agree to come that's on her.
I’ll do one better, anyone who wants to get involved, instead of harassing family members and protesting outside of his family’s house, is welcome to reach out to him and ask him one question: if he has and is able to produce Da’as Torah that sides with him currently.

If he does, it’s nobody’s business to interfere and use bullying to make him change his mind. Spoiler alert: I reached out and obtained the names of 2 Rabbanim who currently back him and his position. Anyone who would like is entitled to do the same.

He has absolutely zero requirement to publicly address anything. This is a private matter and the only reason you are requesting it is the mob bullying him into it.

Why on earth does he need to talk about anything publicly? Because the mob said so? It is common knowledge that he claims he would love nothing more than to work things out in BD.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 07:22:55 PM by S209 »
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Online Yehuda57

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #388 on: March 18, 2021, 07:24:11 PM »
and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get
Above emphasis mine
There was an important qualifier in his psak, that the pressure be beneficial, which you yourself just acknowledged.
Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.
However, it's dishonest to use one extreme example of pressure to discredit an entire pressure campaign.

It's quite clear that the criteria you were using to decide whether or not something should be done to pressure the husband was how beneficial it would be, not that anything is off limits in its own right. Or in other words, cow prods, mobs, harassing siblings, (all things mentioned) are fair game if *you* (or your rav) deem them beneficial. It took a couple posts for you to say something as absurd as harassing family is not ok.

ETA: if you wanna walk back your original gung-ho fire and brimstone, by all means, but don't accuse others of creating a strawman when they were quoting your position.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 07:28:04 PM by Yehuda57 »

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #389 on: March 18, 2021, 07:44:36 PM »
1) I will need to check the nosei keilim later but I’m fairly certain I’m correct and the Rama is referring to minor children in the father’s household.

2) Explain? The Rama lays out the various remedies available, and says Beis Din can enact whatever they want on the transgressor himself short of nidui. He also lays out criteria of hurting the transgressor (through attacking *his personal obligations* of circumcising his son, burying them, and teaching them Torah) despite the collateral damage to others (what I take to mean minors in the transgressor’s household). That appears to be the upper limit of the allowance- especially with use of the word “afilu”.

3) You are correct, I misquoted what you wrote. However, this refers to the father’s (the transgressor himself) obligation to teach Torah to his son- not as a wanton act against a third party as a form of coercion.

I believe you are learning the wrong lesson from the Rama. He is showing how far one can go in attacking the transgressor *himself*, to the point where it can affect others. Of course he would not allow one to attack a third party directly because it is “beneficial”.

The Rama is laying out examples. I think you need more proof to claim those are the upper limit. There is an argument to be made not giving a child a bris is far more harmful than a protest.

Leaving a child unburied is without doubt harmful to the child itself, unless you assume the father would bury it himself. If you consider it an attack on the father simply because it is the father who is obligated to bury (even for an adult child, so long as the father is the closest heir), you can also consider protesting outside parents house an attack against the father because it is his action they're attacking...

I don't know where to draw the line, but on principal I don't think it's right to say family members are always out of bounds. Any Chiluk you're suggesting between the cases the Rama lays out and other situations needs to be proven.


Before posting, I did some more research, and the נימוקי יוסף ב״ק ל״ט ע״ב ד״ה וקאי brings the Teshuvos R' Platoy (which appears to be the source of שות בנימין זאב) and in addition to the sanctions on the son he adds banishing the transgressors wife from Shul, which would seem to refute your chiluk.

The Yam Shel Shlomo does attack him
Quote
ועוד ראיתי דברים תמוהים בהאי תשובה דר' פלטוי גאון, שכתב מוציאין התינוק מבית הספר. חלילה, במה שכל העולם אינו מתקיים אלא בהבל פיהם של תינוקות (שבת קיט, ע"ב) נבטל בשלמא במילה שעיקר המצוה תלוי באב והיא כבודו, וכן לקבור את מתו עליו מוטל והיא כבודו, גם מה שכתב להוציא את אשתו מבית הכנסת לא נהירא. אם הוא חטא, היא מה חטאה? אשת עכן לא נענשה בחרם של כל קהל ישראל, אלא העמידוה לאיים עליו. קל וחומר בנדון זה, שלא לבייש בת ישראל. וכמדומה שלא יצאו אותם שני דברים מפי הגאון... ומוחרם שרצו בית דין להחמיר עליו למיגדר מילתא, הרשות בידם. ויכולים לגזור ולאסור אף על הדיבור [=עמו]. וכן שלא למול את בנו, ולא לקבור את מתו. אבל לעשות נזיפה לאשתו, אם לא יצא עליה שום שם בישא [=רע] ולא שום סרבנות, פשיטא ופשיטא דלא עבדינן לה מידי [=שאין אנו עושין לה דבר]. וכן להוציא את בניו מבית המדרש או מן הישיבה, חלילה וחלילה. וכן פעם אחת בא מעשה לידי בימי חורפי, שכתב לי חכם אחד, וזקן בדורו בעל הוראה, שאוציא את בני המוחרם מישיבה, ולא השגחתי בו כל עיקר



The שו"ת שבות יעקב, חלק ג, סימן צז does agree with your distinction of household members almost word for word

Quote
ואף דנראה לי דאין לנו לזוז אפילו זיז כל שהוא מפסק הבית יוסף ב"שולחן ערוך" ורמ"א [=שתמכו בהענשת המקורבים], ואחריהם אנו נמשכין, ודלא כמהרש"ל, מכל מקום הבו דלא לוסיף עלה [=הבה לא נוסיף על מה שכבר נפסק] לעכב בתו מן החליצה, והיא כבר נסתלקה מרשות אביה ביום חתונתה, ולעגן אותה בחנם, אשר כבר חששו חכמי הש"ס וכל ראשונים ואחרונים לתקנות עגונות, ובפרט לעכב מצווה של החלוץ, שאין לו שום שייכות עם המוחרם... אבל אם החלוצה עצמה גם כן היתה במרד ובמעל הזאת, ודאי יכולים לקנסה

But the Rama does Pasken like the Nimukei Yosef and not the Mahrshal, and it's a chiddush to claim the Rama is going like the Nimukei Yosef in Bris and Kevura but like the Mahrshal re adult family members, and I think it's plausible for contemporary Daas Torah to break from the Shevus Yaakov

FWIW, collective punishment comes up in the Torah in the Mabul, Shechem & Dina, Karachi, Eir Hanidachas, and Amalek (with various explanations and justifications). There is also the pesukim of פוקד עון אבות על בנים & וְשַׂמְתִּ֨י אֲנִ֧י אֶת־פָּנַ֛י בָּאִ֥ישׁ הַה֖וּא וּבְמִשְׁפַּחְתּ֑וֹ and also איש בחטאו יומת with different opinions how to reconcile them.
4. Amalek is a poor example, they are all considered to be perpetually guilty. They have the ability to be megayer as well.

Perhaps according to some, but not according to the Rambam, who says Amalek was (is) collective punishment and is justified in order to deter other environments from harboring villains.

Quote
וממה שכלל אותו גם כן "ספר שופטים" - למחות את 'זרע עמלק' שכמו שיענש האדם האחד ראוי שתענש המשפחה האחת או האומה האחת בעבור שישמעו שאר המשפחות וייראו ולא ירגילו בהפסד כי יאמרו שמא יעשה בנו מה שנעשה בבני פלוני? - עד שאם יולד בהם איש רע מפסיד אשר לא יחוש לרעת נפשו ולא יסתכל ברע שיעשהו לא ימצא עוזר ממשפחתו שיעזרהו על רעותיו שירצה לעשותם.

IINM it's also not clear being Megayer would change the chiyuv to kill them.

Just to reiterate, I do agree it doesn't seem appropriate in this story.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 07:48:27 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #390 on: March 18, 2021, 08:02:55 PM »
I’ll do one better, anyone who wants to get involved, instead of harassing family members and protesting outside of his family’s house, is welcome to reach out to him and ask him one question: if he has and is able to produce Da’as Torah that sides with him currently.

If he does, it’s nobody’s business to interfere and use bullying to make him change his mind. Spoiler alert: I reached out and obtained the names of 2 Rabbanim who currently back him and his position. Anyone who would like is entitled to do the same.

He has absolutely zero requirement to publicly address anything. This is a private matter and the only reason you are requesting it is the mob bullying him into it.

Why on earth does he need to talk about anything publicly? Because the mob said so? It is common knowledge that he claims he would love nothing more than to work things out in BD.

He has no requirement to address anything publicly, but once he’s already responding, he needs to address those 2 questions. Otherwise his response is just a deflection and that clarifies his true intentions.

With regards to the second question, Rabbi Goldberg said that Aron sent an email with a list of 4 Botei Dinim that he is willing to go to. Rabbi Goldberg claims that it is just a delay tactic.

I don’t understand why R’ Goldberg would say that. Give him a chance to go to BD, and take it from there. Unless the answer to the first question is no, or IDK, I don’t see a reason to protest beforehand.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #391 on: March 18, 2021, 08:07:21 PM »
He has no requirement to address anything publicly, but once he’s already responding, he needs to address those 2 questions. Otherwise his response is just a deflection and that clarifies his true intentions.

I don’t understand why R’ Goldberg would say that. Give him a chance to go to BD, and take it from there. Unless the answer to the first question is no, or IDK, I don’t see a reason to protest beforehand.
A link to the video of R' Goldberg was posted this morning. I just sent it to you.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 08:12:13 PM by avromie7 »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #392 on: March 18, 2021, 08:18:29 PM »
He has no requirement to address anything publicly, but once he’s already responding, he needs to address those 2 questions. Otherwise his response is just a deflection and that clarifies his true intentions.
He has stated repeatedly that he has no intention of withholding a get after the process is complete.

I don’t understand why R’ Goldberg would say that. Give him a chance to go to BD, and take it from there. Unless the answer to the first question is no, or IDK, I don’t see a reason to protest beforehand.
You really want to know why? Because there’s an ongoing movement with momentum pushing it now. Waiting for information might make things stale and there will be fewer hotheaded people ready to protest in front of a home without more information.

It’s possible that the first cases pushed by the mob were indeed righteous. But expanding it to bully everyone into submission is the definition of cancel culture. Mob rule is emotional and bad, and here’s a good example of why.
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Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #393 on: March 18, 2021, 08:24:19 PM »
Theres an entire instagram page dedicated to this
link?
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #394 on: March 18, 2021, 08:40:11 PM »
Thanks for your informative post. I still have not had a chance to look into this further but your post brings two sources who seem to agree with my distinction and interpretation.

That was regarding Get refusal. Regarding penalizing other people ever under any circumstances, I don’t know. But they are certainly the exception, not the rule.
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Offline yzj

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #395 on: March 18, 2021, 08:48:15 PM »
Just my thoughts here: I read through all this. I got to say, it's surprising to see the amount of times certain folks here are stating as 'fact' things that they've heard or things that they preface with 'as far as I know' or 'as far as I'm aware'. I'll admit, I do have a personal connection to Aaron's wife's family. And I've heard plenty of stuff from their family. But, I'm also an attorney, and my nature is to be skeptical of what people say, and try to independently verify what I'm told.

So, for example, yes, I heard that Aaron told their oldest daughter that he would kill her mother (Aaron's wife), and I was also told that, because of that, Aaron's wife filed for a protective order against him (which seems like a reasonable thing to do if (huge if) the allegation is true). So, I went on my own and actually checked court records in Palm Beach County, FL, and I found the case. I did see that a hearing was scheduled in relation to a protective order and that a minor would be testifying during the hearing. However, because this is a family law case, most of the record is sealed to everyone but the parties and the attorneys on the case. So, to be honest and consistent, I don't know whether Aaron actually said that to his daughter or not. However, for anyone here to say that the above is factual or not or to say that the above is a misrepresentation of the facts (I'm talking to you @S209), I just don't see how you could independently and honestly come to that conclusion.

I have been posting all the different posters and photos on these protests on my social media over the past few weeks. Before I did so, I called my Rav and asked him if it's ok al pi halacha, since it would seem that hilchos lashon hara could be seriously implicated here. I told him that I've heard a lot of things, but I honestly don't know what is true and what is not. I told him that I do know 2 facts:
1. The couple did get divorced in 'secular' court in Florida. This is a fact that can be independently verified by simply checking the Palm Beach County, FL court records, which I've done; and
2. Aaron's wife, today, wants a get, but he won't give it to her (for whatever his reasons are). This seems pretty obvious at this point, but I still verified it directly with her (and I believe it's reasonable to verify her own state of mind with her, feel free to disagree with me on that if you want).

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get. If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.

Speak to any to’ein or anyone involved in divorces and it is almost routine for women to make claims of child abuse or threats of violence to get an order of protection, preferably an arrest , and a huge advantage in court. Unfortunately there are indeed monsters out there who ought to never see their children but almost equally common are wives who are vindictive or financially motivated and move heaven and earth to keep the fathers out of their kids lives. I’ve seen this too many times to mention.

Sometimes a woman can procure video evidence and that is a major boost to her claims legitimacy but often it is her word, or a child who can obviously be coached and pressured.

You can bet that if these same women (the ones maliciously trying to cut off contact with the father) had the ability to withhold the get as a tool they would use it in a heartbeat. I see nothing wrong with the man doing the same when warranted to prevent permanently losing his kids unjustly. It’s just so hard to know when that is and isn’t the case.

One thing is for sure. The mob sure doesn’t know and has no business taking up the battle.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #396 on: March 18, 2021, 09:43:26 PM »
it is almost routine for women to make claims of child abuse or threats of violence

C'mon, man...
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #397 on: March 18, 2021, 09:44:36 PM »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #398 on: March 18, 2021, 09:46:43 PM »
?

Seriously? It happens. It is NOT "almost routine."
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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #399 on: March 18, 2021, 09:50:17 PM »
Seriously? It happens. It is NOT "almost routine."
In dirty divorces? I know he didn't specify, but I assume that's what he meant.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.