Get Refusal

[Tzvi687]

Mis communication. My post that you originally responded to was referring to daas Torah of the family.

Regarding going after the family, have you read the signed psak din up thread? It’s discussed there.

Just reread correctly. My apologies

[Yehuda57]

At home? U mean in his mothers house? She moved out a while back…

Right. Why was he living in his mother's house before she moved out and then paid his rent?

[zh cohen]

Daas torah? Not a single know/prominent rov.

Rav Mendel Shafran is not a "known/prominent Rov"?
ETA: Rav Gavriel Tzinner is not a "known/prominent Rov"?

[Moshe123]

Never heard of him but this is one of first things that come up when u Google
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/rabbi-who-is-now-vouching-for-leifer-reached-out-to-justice-minister-a-year-ago-to-prevent-extradition/

I don't know why he held that in that case, but Rav Shafran is one of the most chashuv Rabbanim in Israel. Universally accepted.

[Tzvi687]

Mendel Shafran is not a "known/prominent Rov"?
ETA: Gavriel Tzinner is not a "known/prominent Rov"?

I don't know why he held that in that case, but Rav Shafran is one of the most chashuv Rabbanim in Israel. Universally accepted.

If thats true please correct to Harav mendel.

[ari3]

To me it seems hypocritical and talking out of two sides of her mouth. On the one hand complaining that her husband and family and people aren't listening to rabbonim and on the other hand disparaging the rabbonim on this podcast with people that sound like pieces of trash, not to mention many of the protests and other tactics that have been used over the years that weren't endorsed by rabbonim.

I am not condoning her husband withholding a get, just commenting on the hypocrisy.

[imayid2]

many of the protests and other tactics that have been used over the years that weren't endorsed by rabbonim.

https://www.getora.org/rabbinic-endorsements

[JMHO]

To me it seems hypocritical and talking out of two sides of her mouth. On the one hand complaining that her husband and family and people aren't listening to rabbonim and on the other hand disparaging the rabbonim on this podcast with people that sound like pieces of trash, not to mention many of the protests and other tactics that have been used over the years that weren't endorsed by rabbonim.

I am not condoning her husband withholding a get, just commenting on the hypocrisy.

Interesting

[imayid2]

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/we-have-met-the-enemy-and-they-are-us/

[avromie7]

https://www.getora.org/rabbinic-endorsements

One of the rabbanim on the list was asked about a case they were involved in. He didn't agree with what they were doing, but he said he can't say anything because they'll protest outside his house instead. Suffice it to say, I don't have much faith in that list being accurate.

[imayid2]

לא תגורו מפני איש.

If a Ravs name is being used to endorse this and he doesn’t agree, it’s absolutely incumbent on him to say so.

[Yehuda57]

To me it seems hypocritical and talking out of two sides of her mouth. On the one hand complaining that her husband and family and people aren't listening to rabbonim and on the other hand disparaging the rabbonim on this podcast with people that sound like pieces of trash, not to mention many of the protests and other tactics that have been used over the years that weren't endorsed by rabbonim.

I am not condoning her husband withholding a get, just commenting on the hypocrisy.

I didn't find her to be disparaging. The only Rav she mentioned by name was someone she praised for showing care and empathy. She spoke critically of systemic issues that no one seems to be willing to or knows how to rectify. Even if you disagree that those systemic issues exist, someone else believing they do exist and speaking about them critically is hardly disparaging.

Disparaging would be calling 3 people "pieces of trash". You don't have to like them, agree with them, or anything. You can criticize and condemn them all you want without calling them names.

[Yehudaa]

Disparaging would be calling 3 people "pieces of trash". You don't have to like them, agree with them, or anything. You can criticize and condemn them all you want without calling them names.

+100

[ari3]

Disparaging would be calling 3 people "pieces of trash". You don't have to like them, agree with them, or anything. You can criticize and condemn them all you want without calling them names.

I didn't call them trash I wrote they talk like trash which is 100% true and I purposely mentioned that because people that talk that way deserve no respect. The aguna on the other hand was well spoken from the part I heard.

As to disparaging rabbonim, stating that the rabbonim aren't speaking up because they are afraid or because of losing a few donations is bad enough for me. (and a weak argument regardless).

[Yehuda57]

I didn't call them trash I wrote they talk like trash which is 100% true and I purposely mentioned that because people that talk that way deserve no respect. The aguna on the other hand was well spoken from the part I heard.

As to disparaging rabbonim, stating that the rabbonim aren't speaking up because they are afraid of losing a few donations is bad enough for me. (and a weak argument regardless).

You said they "sound like trash", that doesn't usually mean that they talk like trash, but that they sound as though they *are* trash. But I'll take you at your word that you meant something else.

From what I recall she did not make that claim, but the guys did. If you think that it is a weak argument, you have likely (lucky for you) not had any kind of interaction with a BD. It is sadly quite a common issue, not just with gittin, but all kinds of issues. It's not always clear-cut that X is a donor and so I can't rule against them because I will lose $X. It can be more subtle biases, or the desire to be more secretive and hands-offish so as not to stir the pot on a respected communal figure.

And even if I'm way off the mark on that issue, are you really willing to throw out everything else she said and brand her a hypocrite based on that one lone issue? Can you really state with a straight face that after being trapped for a decade with no end in sight you wouldn't have far stronger feelings toward the system that enabled it?

[imayid2]

From what I recall she did not make that claim, but the guys did. If you think that it is a weak argument, you have likely (lucky for you) not had any kind of interaction with a BD. It is sadly quite a common issue, not just with gittin, but all kinds of issues. It's not always clear-cut that X is a donor and so I can't rule against them because I will lose $X. It can be more subtle biases, or the desire to be more secretive and hands-offish so as not to stir the pot on a respected communal figure.

I think there is some conflation here, and this ties into why the hypocrisy claim is flawed.

The is the B’D system which she says gave her a siruv against him pretty much right away, and then there is the community/leaders/Rabbis with whom she is frustrated at for not actively taking enough steps in her opinion, to “enforcing” siruvim.

This is indisputably an issue with the B’D system in the US. We have no real system to enforce these things. ORA sees themselves as filling that void, but they have their own issues.

[yomo]

Language warning (from the hosts, not from her)

I know she's desperate (not sure for drama or get) and sounds so sweet and "innocent" and so pure
But why is she getting on a show with these dudes?
Rabbi bashing cursing amaratzim with earnigs 🤔 seriously bad choice imho
I think the story speaks for itself and there's a reason no legitimate rabbi is backing her up here

[imayid2]

I know she's desperate (not sure for drama or get)

C’mon now, no one wants this kinda “drama”.

But why is she getting on a show with these dudes?

To try to get more public support for her case, and to pressure the family to do more.

Rabbi bashing cursing amaratzim with earnigs 🤔 seriously bad choice imho

I thought they were pretty respectfull about Rabanim overall. (Never heard of them, don’t like the language/earrings either).

there's a reason no legitimate rabbi is backing her up here

What are you talking about?

[Yehuda57]

The victim blaming that comes up again and again with any issue that may be systemic is revolting. Really?! A woman who is an aguna for a decade wants drama and not a get? Instead of policing how she gets to express herself, maybe exercise some compassion and think why people like her feel no choice other than to publicize their stories on such podcasts, and why all the "legitimate" avenues she has tried for years and years have yielded no results.

[Yehudaa]

The victim blaming that comes up again and again with any issue that may be systemic is revolting. Really?! A woman who is an aguna for a decade wants drama and not a get? Instead of policing how she gets to express herself, maybe exercise some compassion and think why people like her feel no choice other than to publicize their stories on such podcasts, and why all the "legitimate" avenues she has tried for years and years have yielded no results.

+1

People seem to forget that behind all of this is a woman whose emotions are likely a total wreck, and whose desperation is unimaginable. I can't begin to imagine the emotional and psychological challenges that any agunah has been through, and neither can anyone else who's talking from their couch. (And that's all in addition to the regular stresses of being a single mother with little or no support in many cases, which itself is an unbelievably challenging experience.)

Let's cut these women some slack and stop judging their actions as though they have a team of well-paid strategists to determine the best PR plan, and and a team of speechwriters to make sure that their words sound precisely the way we'd like them to.

Is it possible that a woman in such a situation might say something that might not sound 100% as you think it should, or might do something that might make you think she's not making the absolute best choices in your opinion? Yes and yes. But I strongly doubt any of us would do any better if saddled with the baggage that she is, so don't judge.

/rant