Get Refusal

[Mootkim]

This is usually where things get stuck, she doesn't like his choice of BD and he doesn't like hers.

If he would come and explain that he wants a different beis din doesn't he have a right to that? Wouldn't they discontinue the siruv?

[avromie7]

If he would come and explain that he wants a different beis din doesn't he have a right to that? Wouldn't they discontinue the siruv?

He doesn't need to go to the BD, but he does need to inform him. Now we're getting to when a corrupt BD keeps a siruv out because they don't like the BD he chose.

[pbf]

Without justifying anyone's tone or opinions, it is a direct reaction to the one-sidedness of the activism we've been exposed to over the last few years. The harder things get pushed towards one side, the harder the pushback. This isn't limited to the "get" issue. You can look at any issue society faces and see similar actions/reactions. Hence the polarization of our society.

Some may call it feminism, some may decry what has seeped into our world and they may be right, but facts are facts and we are where we are.

I am stringent in halacha and hold dearly onto our mesorah, but so many other aspects of our lives have adapted to the times, there is no reason this should not be as well.

Please honestly take a minute and  try to see it from a woman's perspective.


While in the past I may have been 'sold' to my husband from my father for a couple of cows, those days are long over.

I am an independent single woman who has been earning a salary and putting away money for the past 10 years. Although I expect to trust the man I marry, it is still troublesome to me that the morning after my wedding, this man now halachically owns every dollar I ever owned. I am not an 18 year old girl that has nothing to her name and her father is passing her over to her husband.
Times have changed.

It's troublesome that the man has such a clear advantage when it comes to a divorce. Of course there are cases when the woman is taking advantage, whether it be the kids or money. Of course there are cases where the woman is crazy, maligning the man etc.
But at the end of the day, that can and does happen on both sides. There should be no clear leverage handed to one side with no reason.

Fight things out civilly in court and Beis Din with both equal players coming to the field.

As a side point, I've been following the social media campaign and am inspired as to what has gone on. Yes, there has been extreme fact checking before posting and rallying. The main players here have spoken extensively to beis din and all various parties involved before posting anything.

I think that's imperative, as we obviously don't want this to turn into a #metoo movement where every man is blamed for any movement, but it can only be a  good thing to engender a little more fear into a man's heart and make him think twice about withholding a get in the future.

[aygart]

Bottom line is that all blanket statements are wrong including this one.

[AsherO]

Menchlichkeit in Relationships is an asset sometimes lacking in our community, whether people stay married or get divorced.

[avromie7]

Some may call it feminism, some may decry what has seeped into our world and they may be right, but facts are facts and we are where we are.

I am stringent in halacha and hold dearly onto our mesorah, but so many other aspects of our lives have adapted to the times, there is no reason this should not be as well.

Please honestly take a minute and  try to see it from a woman's perspective.


While in the past I may have been 'sold' to my husband from my father for a couple of cows, those days are long over.

I am an independent single woman who has been earning a salary and putting away money for the past 10 years. Although I expect to trust the man I marry, it is still troublesome to me that the morning after my wedding, this man now halachically owns every dollar I ever owned. I am not an 18 year old girl that has nothing to her name and her father is passing her over to her husband.
Times have changed.

I don't think this is true, and it's definitely not the way a BD handles the assets in a case of divorce.

A woman who works outside the home is entitled to keep her own money.

It's troublesome that the man has such a clear advantage when it comes to a divorce. Of course there are cases when the woman is taking advantage, whether it be the kids or money. Of course there are cases where the woman is crazy, maligning the man etc.
But at the end of the day, that can and does happen on both sides. There should be no clear leverage handed to one side with no reason.

Fight things out civilly in court and Beis Din with both equal players coming to the field.

This sounds great in theory, but in practice, why is it wrong for a man to hold on to the power he has in order to counteract anything she does against halacha? The fact is the playing field is far from level. When she already has his money and kids, why should he give up the only power he has to bring her to BD?

[aygart]

While in the past I may have been 'sold' to my husband from my father for a couple of cows, those days are long over.

I am an independent single woman who has been earning a salary and putting away money for the past 10 years. Although I expect to trust the man I marry, it is still troublesome to me that the morning after my wedding, this man now halachically owns every dollar I ever owned.

Be troubled no more since this is a mistaken assumption on your part. There is zero transfer of assets to the husbands upon marriage and there never was. This is clear in the mishna among other places. We don't need changing times for this one.

[yuneeq]

It can’t be that the guy is always wrong, There is some notion whoever you want to say is running these campaigns that the guys always wrong no matter what.

It's not that the man is always wrong, but when the man is right their cases don't usually get any attention. All the recent cases I've seen the man was wrong. We need to do more for both instances.

[whacked1]

Some may call it feminism, some may decry what has seeped into our world and they may be right, but facts are facts and we are where we are.

Your "facts" are not that factual

[pbf]

Be troubled no more since this is a mistaken assumption on your part. There is zero transfer of assets to the husbands upon marriage and there never was. This is clear in the mishna among other places. We don't need changing times for this one.

I'm glad to hear that. I was under the impression that halachically, since the man technically 'owns' the woman, he owns all her assets.

[AsherO]

I'm glad to hear that. I was under the impression that halachically, since the man technically 'owns' the woman, he owns all her assets.

AFAIU the woman owns the assets she bought into the relationship and whatever profits are earned on those. Additionally, while the husband has a responsibility to support her within his means/her needs, she can waive rights to that support and keep ownership of whatever she earns. Please CMIIW.

[pbf]

Your "facts" are not that factual

What I mean by facts is the place women are in today's world vs a few hundred years ago.

[AsherO]

What I mean by facts is the place women are in today's world vs a few hundred years ago.

The fact that it’s more common for women to work and the wage gap is closing, should only mean modern women aren’t as dependent on alimony/child-support as in the past.

[pbf]

The fact that it’s more common for women to work and the wage gap is closing, should only mean modern women aren’t as dependent on alimony/child-support as in the past.

That may be so. But then the kesubah should be changed.

[AsherO]

That may be so. But then the kesubah should be changed.

I don’t think most here will agree with that suggestion, might be a bit progressive for DDF. Family courts also seem to be pretty conservative/traditional in this regard as well, should those standards change too?

[pbf]

I don’t think most here will agree with that suggestion, might be a bit progressive for DDF.

I don't agree with it myself

I don't know anything about this subject so to suggest a change would be idiotic.

I'm merely stating the if the kesubah requires the husband to support the wife, then that should be followed with the same fervor as deciding when and where to give a get.

[aygart]

I'm glad to hear that. I was under the impression that halachically, since the man technically 'owns' the woman, he owns all her assets.

Check your premise. This too is not the case, despite some claims to the contrary.

That may be so. But then the kesubah should be changed.

Which aspects of the kesuba are you advocating to be changed?

[Lurker]

There's a lot to dissect here, so I'll try to be as clear as I can. I'm going to break down your post, and I will quote things out of order, so please forgive me.

Please honestly take a minute and  try to see it from a woman's perspective.

I hope this doesn't come across as a "but I have Black friends" statement. I married a divorced woman. I promise I get the full picture from the woman's point of view. Not to say that every woman has the same POV, but I am most definitely not approaching this one-sided. My commentary below may come across as taking the man's side, but it is only to show that things are not as black and white as you suggest. There are most definitely more than two sides to each case, and each case is as completely unique as the people involved. TL;DR: generalizations are bad, especially with marriage and divorce.

I think that's imperative, as we obviously don't want this to turn into a #metoo movement where every man is blamed for any movement, but it can only be a  good thing to engender a little more fear into a man's heart and make him think twice about withholding a get in the future.

I don't know how common you think this issue is. Generalizations like this make two massive mistakes. First, it implies that all men are even capable of such a thing. Second, it implies that men are the only ones who withhold gittin. By smearing all men with these assumptions, you're inadvertently causing the overreaction you're seeing and appalled by here.

As a side point, I've been following the social media campaign and am inspired as to what has gone on. Yes, there has been extreme fact checking before posting and rallying. The main players here have spoken extensively to beis din and all various parties involved before posting anything.

A couple of points here:

• Fact checking is great, when you have the ability to know all the facts. The reality is, what goes on in a private relationship is often unable to be fact-checked. Just because a Rov or a BD was given one set of facts and will vouch for those facts, does not mean they have the full picture. There could be a number of reasons why they haven't gotten the full picture. Ultimately, though, an activist fact-checking to confirm a conclusion they've already reached is less than 100% trustworthy.
• You'll notice that all the stories you've been reading are about women who have been refused gittin. Much like BLM narratives, where only Black men are shot by cops, this causes distrust and bad blood from those on the other side of the narrative.

It's troublesome that the man has such a clear advantage when it comes to a divorce. Of course there are cases when the woman is taking advantage, whether it be the kids or money. Of course there are cases where the woman is crazy, maligning the man etc.
But at the end of the day, that can and does happen on both sides. There should be no clear leverage handed to one side with no reason.

Please explain what advantage you believe a man has. In the civil courts, the law is very heavily skewed towards women.

Fight things out civilly in court and Beis Din with both equal players coming to the field.

Like in the rest of the world, both men and women are capable of playing dirty, and both do. Divorce is the same with or without halacha. Toxic breakups will be ugly. We don't live in a utopia.

I'm not going to address the things others already corrected. Long story short, I think you're getting a partial picture.

[PlatinumGuy]

I am an independent single woman who has been earning a salary and putting away money for the past 10 years. Although I expect to trust the man I marry, it is still troublesome to me that the morning after my wedding, this man now halachically owns every dollar I ever owned. I am not an 18 year old girl that has nothing to her name and her father is passing her over to her husband.
Times have changed.

For what it's worth, the husband never owns the wife's assets, he only has a lessees right to use them and earn income from them, and the Mishna explicitly allows this standard arrangement to be waived and the wife to maintain full ownership of her property if the couple prefers that.

The Torah also goes to the woman's benefit and mandates that the husband feed & clothe his wife, that modern law and morality doesn't necessitate.

It's troublesome that the man has such a clear advantage

You can say that about many things in the Torah... The bottom line is that we may seem to us to be unfair, is actually very fair even though we cannot understand it.

Be troubled no more since this is a mistaken assumption on your part. There is zero transfer of assets to the husbands upon marriage and there never was.

נכסי מילוג is very clearly a 'transfer of assets', but the husband only receives a ׳קניין פירות׳ lease and not full ownership. I assume you mean the transfer of assets isn't permanent because it reverts back to the premarital baseline in case of divorce, although the husband will typically keep income derived during the marriage unless explicitly negotiated otherwise.

[yitzgar]

I don't agree with it myself

I don't know anything about this subject so to suggest a change would be idiotic.

I'm merely stating the if the kesubah requires the husband to support the wife, then that should be followed with the same fervor as deciding when and where to give a get.

The kesuba requires that a man support his wife while married. Child support after divorce is not included