Get Refusal

[PlatinumGuy]

I would actually disagree with this. The Rama you are citing is really an example of sanctioning him, not his children. These are things that he has to take care of, and which they are not feeling the physical effects of. He never said you cannot feed or medically treat his children.

There are definitely degrees, and obviously you can sanction a villain more than you can his family or community, but it's a big stretch to say not burying a son isn't felt by the son at all. Although according to one opinion Hespedim are primarily for the benefit of the surviving family members and not the deceased, burying a מת מצווה who doesn't have any known relatives is an important Chiyuv that is doche other mitzvahs (Pesach and Kohanim). Perhaps you can argue that is to prevent a dishonor for the general community and not for the benefit of Niftar himself, but I don't think that's the simple Pshat. Even with a Bris, it's very difficult to assert that a baby has no benefit from having a Bris and no harm from it being withheld.

It's hard to quantify pain but personally I think protesting outside parents home is both less punitive than witholding a Bris or burial.

Thank you for the quotation, though. Your posts are always well reasoned, well constructed, comprehensive, and displaying formidable knowledge and understanding of the subject matters, no matter the topic.

Whoa! Thank you very much. I'm out to improve my knowledge and judgement, and I'm sure many debates and opinions on DDF have contributed. There is definitely a long way still to go...

I can't wait until one of these spills over onto DDF.

Picture the scene: A big rabbi opens a DDF account (or one of the resident rabbis, like Chief Rabbi of NY) and posts that a certain DDFer is a get refuser, and that anyone on DDF who does not try to cajole him to give the get is complicit in the act.

Now let your imagination run wild...

Let's hope anybody who is reasonable enough to debate with the minimal decorum we demand would never behave so unfairly.

[Mootkim]

I can't wait until one of these spills over onto DDF.

Picture the scene: A big rabbi opens a DDF account (or one of the resident rabbis, like Chief Rabbi of NY) and posts that a certain DDFer is a get refuser, and that anyone on DDF who does not try to cajole him to give the get is complicit in the act.

Now let your imagination run wild...

How would we ensure they dont open a new account?

[Yehuda25]

But the law is the law regarding custody and child support. Is it unfair? Possibly. Do we need to listen to the law regardless? Yes. Using a get to force her to forgo her lawful rights to the law is in my opinion corrupt.

Could not disagree more, that's exactly how it should play it out.

[Yehuda25]

It is leverage by definition. He has the power. Now we can debate how it is appropriate for him to use that power.

exactly exactly

[Yehuda25]

If a get is given based on an arbitration agreement that may be thrown out in court, the man gets the short end of the stick. The arbitration agreement may be a good thing, but the concession in return is a bad idea.

was wondering this

[drosenberg88429]

There are definitely degrees, and obviously you can sanction a villain more than you can his family or community, but it's a big stretch to say not burying a son isn't felt by the son at all. Although according to one opinion Hespedim are primarily for the benefit of the surviving family members and not the deceased, burying a מת מצווה who doesn't have any known relatives is an important Chiyuv that is doche other mitzvahs (Pesach and Kohanim). Perhaps you can argue that is to prevent a dishonor for the general community and not for the benefit of Niftar himself, but I don't think that's the simple Pshat. Even with a Bris, it's very difficult to assert that a baby has no benefit from having a Bris and no harm from it being withheld.

It's hard to quantify pain but personally I think protesting outside parents home is both less punitive than witholding a Bris or burial.

Withholding a bris and burial from a minor may be different than withholding from an adult, in terms of repercussions being experienced by the child. I don't know if you can bring proofs from the sources that discuss the discomfort and pain experienced by a niftar prior to burial, as those sources are discussing adults that are not pure from sin. Children that do not need to repent seem to have much less to lose by death, which I believe is why מיתת ילדים can be a punishment to the parents and community, whereas by adults איש בחטאו יומת.

Being as the Rama is discussing minors, and is only discussing censures which have spiritual repercussions, not physical, I don't believe it is analogous to the case at hand.

[PlatinumGuy]

Withholding a bris and burial from a minor may be different than withholding from an adult, in terms of repercussions being experienced by the child. I don't know if you can bring proofs from the sources that discuss the discomfort and pain experienced by a niftar prior to burial, as those sources are discussing adults that are not pure from sin. Children that do not need to repent seem to have much less to lose by death, which I believe is why מיתת ילדים can be a punishment to the parents and community, whereas by adults איש בחטאו יומת.

Being as the Rama is discussing minors, and is only discussing censures which have spiritual repercussions, not physical, I don't believe it is analogous to the case at hand.

Are you saying מת מצווה is only adults and not minors?

I'm also not convinced the Rama is only talking about minors.

Being as the Rama is discussing minors, and is only discussing censures which have spiritual repercussions, not physical, I don't believe it is analogous to the case at hand.

Perhaps, but the Rama cites a שות בנימין זאב and he also says people shouldn't teach the get refusers son, which is physical.

[S209]

I am pretty familiar with that story and that is absolutely untrue, rather it is the narrative that they are trying to portray. He sees his youngest kids all the time and up until about 2 months ago saw his oldest as well. When he said in front of his oldest kid that he has a gun and would kill her mother if so and so, she refused to go back to him and they were granted a restraining order by the court that he cannot see her for 2 years. The kid testified in private to a judge that she was scared to go to him. I am not taking sides on any of this as all of it sounds like childish fighting in general to me, however, to have many people believe that she is holding back the kids etc. which is untrue is just sad.

I spoke with a close relative of Aaron’s and while I won’t take sides and obviously I only heard one half of the story and don’t want to divulge what I’ve heard privately suffice it to say
A) You are completely misrepresenting what happened
B) They are in the midst of a heated custody battle and have not settled things at all, calling him a “get refuser” is idiotic and shows that this movement is a total scam, as a get is not usually given before the proceedings are finished
C) AFAIK there are no Rabbanim in Lakewood who are against him and I’m aware of a choshuve Rosh Yeshiva and Dayan who are on his side and are guiding him
D) Until the current brouhaha she has never so much as requested a get..
E) A relative of his is crying herself to sleep nightly and jumps at any sound because of the abusive messages she is constantly receiving after being doxxed. She has close to no relationship with him at all.

This is the only case out there that I am familiar with some details. If this is the standard “get refuser” case for which we are justifying cancel culture and mob rule, this movement is a disgusting perversion of justice and should be stopped immediately. “Get refusal is automatic abuse” is a false absolute being wielded here wrongfully like a weapon.

The “unnamed Rabbanim” who endorsed the Lakewood protest are highly suspicious, to say the least.

[S209]

Not always are there really 2 sides. Sometimes one side really is a monster. I know nothing about the case (or even what case is being referred to) but when someone tells a child how he would kill her mother that is somewhat indicative (if true).

It’s true that sometimes only one side is a monster, but according to his side that is not what happened here and they are painting her as a monster instead. I don’t know who the true monster is, or if it’s both or neither, but it definitely isn’t black and white the way the SJW mob is portraying it.

[Lurker]

The “unnamed Rabbanim” who endorsed the Lakewood protest are highly suspicious, to say the least.

The Rabbonim who endorsed the protest were named. The Rabbonim that they spoke to for guidance were anonymous.

[Lurker]

I don’t know who the true monster is, or if it’s both or neither, but it definitely isn’t black and white the way the SJW mob is portraying it.

It's never black and white. There are always at least 2 sides to the story. The issue I'm finding on this thread, and others have pointed it out as well, is the overreaction of some posters in the attempt to "even the scales." It's ok to say we don't know and to point out that a publication or organization isn't presenting the full story. But doing the same thing in defense of the guy, you aren't helping your case.

One example:

I spoke with a close relative of Aaron’s and while I won’t take sides and obviously I only heard one half of the story and don’t want to divulge what I’ve heard privately suffice it to say
A) You are completely misrepresenting what happened

How can anyone possibly make this statement after saying they only heard one side, and from a biased source at that?

[Yehuda25]

I think at this point he should release a statement showing his side of the story.

[S209]

One example:
How can anyone possibly make this statement after saying they only heard one side, and from a biased source at that?

Because AFAIK the court never claimed that there was ever any mention of a gun, and because the details are hotly contested by one side. It’s a misrepresentation to claim what happened as a fact when the facts are completely in dispute and in “he said she said” territory. The only way OP could know what happened would be if he were actually present, which isn’t even what she claims.

[S209]

I think at this point he should release a statement showing his side of the story.

He doesn’t need to air his dirty laundry in public because her side is bullying him. The Rabbanim in his community appear to back him. Again I only know some details of half the story but to say he needs to bow to the bullying is wrong.

[PlatinumGuy]

He doesn’t need to air his dirty laundry in public because her side is bullying him.

There is a concept of והייתם נקיים מה׳ ומאדם. He should at least publicly state the accusations aren't true.

[Yehuda25]

He doesn’t need to air his dirty laundry in public because her side is bullying him. The Rabbanim in his community appear to back him. Again I only know some details of half the story but to say he needs to bow to the bullying is wrong.

Why is releasing a statement bowing to bullying? Now that this has been elevated to the public level (for right or wrong) at least show something (even if he says has has rabbonim backing him that dont want to publicize their names, its still better then nothing)

[avromie7]

He doesn’t need to air his dirty laundry in public because her side is bullying him. The Rabbanim in his community appear to back him. Again I only know some details of half the story but to say he needs to bow to the bullying is wrong.

+1000 although on his end it may be a good tactical decision. OTOH, we're dealing with a mob who has never been bothered by facts.

[Yehuda25]

There is a concept of והייתם נקיים מה׳ ומאדם. He should at least publicly state the accusations aren't true.

exactly

[S209]

overreaction

His side has not made any public attempts at humiliating her or her family, AFAIK. On the other hand, his father’s employer has been harassed to let him go, there have been public protests staged in front of his family’s home, and his siblings’ and relatives’ information have been made public and they are subject to hundreds of constant threatening messages to the point that they fear for their lives.

[S209]

There is a concept of והייתם נקיים מה׳ ומאדם. He should at least publicly state the accusations aren't true.

I heard he has been trying to combat the falsehoods on WhatsApp, but you aren’t going to see it publicized.