Author Topic: Get Refusal  (Read 74707 times)

Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #300 on: March 18, 2021, 02:26:52 PM »
His side has not made any public attempts at humiliating her or her family, AFAIK. On the other hand, his father’s employer has been harassed to let him go, there have been public protests staged in front of his family’s home, and his siblings’ and relatives’ information have been made public and they are subject to hundreds of constant threatening messages to the point that they fear for their lives.
This is the MO of this mob. They've done this before and they'll do it again.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #301 on: March 18, 2021, 02:29:31 PM »
AFAIK

This is the most important thing you posted. How can anyone take a cursory look at a case, hear one or two versions of a story, and then talk about this publicly as if they know anything? You realize these are people's lives? If you G-d forbid pick the wrong side of a fight you have no business being in, and put out bad information you got from either a biased source or incomplete documentation... These are people. With kids. You don't like the protests? Neither do I. But this is worse than the protests.

ETA: I don't mean to attack you specifically. People have given "details" of the other side, as well, and that's not any better.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 02:36:16 PM by Lurker »
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #302 on: March 18, 2021, 02:35:28 PM »
This is the most important thing you posted. How can anyone take a cursory look at a case, hear one or two versions of a story, and then talk about this publicly as if they know anything? You realize these are people's lives? If you G-d forbid pick the wrong side of a fight you have no business being in, and put out bad information you got from either a biased source or incomplete documentation... These are people. With kids. You don't like the protests? Neither do I. But this is worse than the protests.
No, it’s not. The protests and harassment are obviously far worse than me explaining that it’s wrong to harass family members without knowing more information. At no point did I say he’s in the right, nor do I claim to know the whole story, but I do maintain that it’s horrifying that family members are being harassed when this is not a classic case of obvious abuse. I am not picking sides at all. I don’t know who’s right.

I know of 2 chashuva Rabbanim who stand by him, and that’s enough for me to realize it’s nobody’s place to get involved in the bullying. Again, not that he’s right, but that it’s not the place of the mob to intervene.

I don’t even understand what it is that I’m doing that you think is wrong. Attempting to stop the harassment of family members in an ongoing custody battle? What is being done is a travesty of justice. Full stop.
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #303 on: March 18, 2021, 02:39:05 PM »
When I have a bit of time I’ll try to make a longer post explaining what I think is going on here vis a vis get refusal in general and where the disconnect is. I’ve had a bunch of conversations via PM and it’s helped me see the differing positions in a new light.
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Offline Mootkim

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #304 on: March 18, 2021, 02:40:22 PM »
His side has not made any public attempts at humiliating her or her family, AFAIK.
Theres an entire instagram page dedicated to this

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #305 on: March 18, 2021, 02:41:33 PM »
No, it’s not. The protests and harassment are obviously far worse than me explaining that it’s wrong to harass family members without knowing more information. At no point did I say he’s in the right, nor do I claim to know the whole story, but I do maintain that it’s horrifying that family members are being harassed when this is not a classic case of obvious abuse.

I know of 2 chashuva Rabbanim who stand by him, and that’s enough for me to realize it’s nobody’s place to get involved in the bullying.

I don’t even understand what it is that I’m doing that you think is wrong. Attempting to stop the harassment of family members in an ongoing custody battle? What is being done is a travesty of justice. Full stop.

I spoke with a close relative of Aaron’s and while I won’t take sides and obviously I only heard one half of the story and don’t want to divulge what I’ve heard privately suffice it to say
A) You are completely misrepresenting what happened
B) They are in the midst of a heated custody battle and have not settled things at all, calling him a “get refuser” is idiotic and shows that this movement is a total scam, as a get is not usually given before the proceedings are finished
C) AFAIK there are no Rabbanim in Lakewood who are against him and I’m aware of a choshuve Rosh Yeshiva and Dayan who are on his side and are guiding him
D) Until the current brouhaha she has never so much as requested a get..
E) A relative of his is crying herself to sleep nightly and jumps at any sound because of the abusive messages she is constantly receiving after being doxxed. She has close to no relationship with him at all.

With all due respect, the first 4 points of your post had nothing to do with harassing family members. You stated "facts" about a case you are not involved in. THAT is my problem. And as I said in my edit, this isn't specific to you. Other posters have done it as well.
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #306 on: March 18, 2021, 02:46:40 PM »
With all due respect, the first 4 points of your post had nothing to do with harassing family members. You stated "facts" about a case you are not involved in. THAT is my problem. And as I said in my edit, this isn't specific to you. Other posters have done it as well.
The first thing I stated I replied to earlier. The rest of what I wrote is not in dispute  as far as I’m aware.

Once again, my point all along has been to show that this is far from an open and shut case and it is horrifying that family members are ending used as pawns. You claimed this is worse than protests in front of his family’s home. Please explain.

Once again: I do not know who is right, and I never claimed to. One of them may indeed be a monster.
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Offline Mootkim

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #307 on: March 18, 2021, 02:46:54 PM »

I know of 2 chashuva Rabbanim who stand by him, and that’s enough for me to realize it’s nobody’s place to get involved in the bullying. Again, not that he’s right, but that it’s not the place of the mob to intervene.

A couple of points in this case though that I believe are undisputed.
Firstly, there is a siruv against him.
Secondly, From what I have heard (and this can be disputed and possibly not a "fact) none of those rabbanim have spoken to her at all and heard her side.
Thirdly, the BD in Monsey as well as rabbi Efram Goldberg gave the OK (with the permission of 2 other gedolim who they didnt want to mention) to stage these protests  fully aware of the impact on the family members.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #308 on: March 18, 2021, 02:54:09 PM »
It’s true that sometimes only one side is a monster, but according to his side that is not what happened here and they are painting her as a monster instead. I don’t know who the true monster is, or if it’s both or neither, but it definitely isn’t black and white the way the SJW mob is portraying it.
As I wrote, I am not speaking of this specific case. I have no personal knowledge of it and if I did, I wouldn't be at liberty to divulge it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #309 on: March 18, 2021, 02:55:08 PM »
It's rarely black and white.
FTFY.There most definitely are cases where it is.
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Offline whacked1

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #310 on: March 18, 2021, 02:57:56 PM »
Terrifying. I daven for their children. I dont know (nor care, frankly) about this case. However, the innocent children in this case (and others like it). The emotional trauma this leaves is scary.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #311 on: March 18, 2021, 02:59:32 PM »
The first thing I stated I replied to earlier. The rest of what I wrote is not in dispute  as far as I’m aware.

Once again, my point all along has been to show that this is far from an open and shut case and it is horrifying that family members are ending used as pawns. You claimed this is worse than protests in front of his family’s home. Please explain.

Once again: I do not know who is right, and I never claimed to. One of them may indeed be a monster.

I don't think most people believe this is an open and shut case. 99/100 are not. I take issue with details of the case being bandied about as if everyone's an expert or even has a dog in the fight. Keep to your point that family members shouldn't be used as pawns and that the activism is bad, and we're in agreement.

And btw, he lives in Boca, not Lakewood. The Rov of his community is Rabbi Efrem Goldberg.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #312 on: March 18, 2021, 03:00:15 PM »
FTFY. There most definitely are cases where it is.

Fair. But definitely not the norm.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #313 on: March 18, 2021, 03:11:30 PM »
Thirdly, a Rov from a BD in Monsey as well as rabbi Efram Goldberg gave the OK (with the permission of 2 other gedolim who they didnt want to mention) to stage these protests  fully aware of the impact on the family members.

FTFY. I don't think it was a Psak from the Beis Din.

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #314 on: March 18, 2021, 03:14:10 PM »
I don't think most people believe this is an open and shut case. 99/100 are not. I take issue with details of the case being bandied about as if everyone's an expert or even has a dog in the fight.
It is telling that you only took issue with it when I *replied* to someone else who presented facts. Are you checking your biases?

And btw, he lives in Boca, not Lakewood. The Rov of his community is Rabbi Efrem Goldberg.
His family lives in Lakewood and I am referring to that protest. That is his family, and local Rabbanim did not endorse the protests. It is extremely off putting, to put it mildly.
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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #315 on: March 18, 2021, 03:35:09 PM »
It is telling that you only took issue with it when I *replied* to someone else who presented facts. Are you checking your biases?

You're right. I wasn't as bothered by that post initially because certain parts of that post resonated with me, but it absolutely shouldn't be published either.

His family lives in Lakewood and I am referring to that protest. That is his family, and local Rabbanim did not endorse the protests. It is extremely off putting, to put it mildly.

And I was referring to this statement:

The Rabbanim in his community appear to back him.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #316 on: March 18, 2021, 03:43:04 PM »
You're right. I wasn't as bothered by that post initially because certain parts of that post resonated with me, but it absolutely shouldn't be published either.

And I was referring to this statement:
When 1 side presents "facts", the other could and should present the opposing facts. Leaving one bias without showing the other is wrong.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #317 on: March 18, 2021, 03:47:38 PM »
When 1 side presents "facts", the other could and should present the opposing facts. Leaving one bias without showing the other is wrong.

If he wants to publish his version in defense of himself, that's his prerogative. But the answer to a third party posting something they shouldn't have is to have that removed, not have more third parties adding counter "facts" to the fray.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #318 on: March 18, 2021, 04:07:33 PM »
If he wants to publish his version in defense of himself, that's his prerogative. But the answer to a third party posting something they shouldn't have is to have that removed, not have more third parties adding counter "facts" to the fray.

Someone posted one side's perspective. @S209 posted the other side's perspective and made it very clear that it was coming from that side.

I think it is absolutely appropriate to balance the widespread dissemination of one side's perspective with the other side's perspective.

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #319 on: March 18, 2021, 04:09:08 PM »
Just my thoughts here: I read through all this. I got to say, it's surprising to see the amount of times certain folks here are stating as 'fact' things that they've heard or things that they preface with 'as far as I know' or 'as far as I'm aware'. I'll admit, I do have a personal connection to Aaron's wife's family. And I've heard plenty of stuff from their family. But, I'm also an attorney, and my nature is to be skeptical of what people say, and try to independently verify what I'm told.

So, for example, yes, I heard that Aaron told their oldest daughter that he would kill her mother (Aaron's wife), and I was also told that, because of that, Aaron's wife filed for a protective order against him (which seems like a reasonable thing to do if (huge if) the allegation is true). So, I went on my own and actually checked court records in Palm Beach County, FL, and I found the case. I did see that a hearing was scheduled in relation to a protective order and that a minor would be testifying during the hearing. However, because this is a family law case, most of the record is sealed to everyone but the parties and the attorneys on the case. So, to be honest and consistent, I don't know whether Aaron actually said that to his daughter or not. However, for anyone here to say that the above is factual or not or to say that the above is a misrepresentation of the facts (I'm talking to you @S209), I just don't see how you could independently and honestly come to that conclusion.

I have been posting all the different posters and photos on these protests on my social media over the past few weeks. Before I did so, I called my Rav and asked him if it's ok al pi halacha, since it would seem that hilchos lashon hara could be seriously implicated here. I told him that I've heard a lot of things, but I honestly don't know what is true and what is not. I told him that I do know 2 facts:
1. The couple did get divorced in 'secular' court in Florida. This is a fact that can be independently verified by simply checking the Palm Beach County, FL court records, which I've done; and
2. Aaron's wife, today, wants a get, but he won't give it to her (for whatever his reasons are). This seems pretty obvious at this point, but I still verified it directly with her (and I believe it's reasonable to verify her own state of mind with her, feel free to disagree with me on that if you want).

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get. If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.