Get Refusal

[zh cohen]

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get

You write that your Rav approved "any pressure that we think is beneficial." Does that include posting pictures of his teenage siblings?

[casualchurner]

You write that your Rav approved "any pressure that we think is beneficial." Does that include posting pictures of his teenage siblings?

There was an important qualifier in his psak, that the pressure be beneficial, which you yourself just acknowledged.
Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.
However, it's dishonest to use one extreme example of pressure to discredit an entire pressure campaign.

[S209]

Just my thoughts here: I read through all this. I got to say, it's surprising to see the amount of times certain folks here are stating as 'fact' things that they've heard or things that they preface with 'as far as I know' or 'as far as I'm aware'. I'll admit, I do have a personal connection to Aaron's wife's family. And I've heard plenty of stuff from their family. But, I'm also an attorney, and my nature is to be skeptical of what people say, and try to independently verify what I'm told.

So, for example, yes, I heard that Aaron told their oldest daughter that he would kill her mother (Aaron's wife), and I was also told that, because of that, Aaron's wife filed for a protective order against him (which seems like a reasonable thing to do if (huge if) the allegation is true). So, I went on my own and actually checked court records in Palm Beach County, FL, and I found the case. I did see that a hearing was scheduled in relation to a protective order and that a minor would be testifying during the hearing. However, because this is a family law case, most of the record is sealed to everyone but the parties and the attorneys on the case. So, to be honest and consistent, I don't know whether Aaron actually said that to his daughter or not. However, for anyone here to say that the above is factual or not or to say that the above is a misrepresentation of the facts (I'm talking to you @S209), I just don't see how you could independently and honestly come to that conclusion.

I don’t know why I’m getting dragged in here regarding finer details of a case that I have repeatedly said I am not familiar with but you’re severely undermining your objectivity by calling me out by name when all I said was that what a prior poster posited as “fact” was actually a misrepresentation of the alleged facts (and indeed the court filing shows no such “facts” as I previously elaborated when asked, and I do not believe she has ever claimed to believe he has a gun.) Why didn’t you call out the original poster who claimed to know the actual facts?

TL;DR: You are calling me out for calling out another poster for misrepresenting unverifiable facts but won’t call out the original poster for doing so. Your motives seem noble and sincere.

I have been posting all the different posters and photos on these protests on my social media over the past few weeks. Before I did so, I called my Rav and asked him if it's ok al pi halacha, since it would seem that hilchos lashon hara could be seriously implicated here. I told him that I've heard a lot of things, but I honestly don't know what is true and what is not. I told him that I do know 2 facts:
1. The couple did get divorced in 'secular' court in Florida. This is a fact that can be independently verified by simply checking the Palm Beach County, FL court records, which I've done; and
2. Aaron's wife, today, wants a get, but he won't give it to her (for whatever his reasons are). This seems pretty obvious at this point, but I still verified it directly with her (and I believe it's reasonable to verify her own state of mind with her, feel free to disagree with me on that if you want).

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get. If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.

Yes, she filed for divorce in secular court without going to Beis Din first (this has been admitted to by R’ Efram Goldberg in his interview). That is completely irrelevant to claims of her being an agunah and is actually proof of wrongdoing on her part. One is not referred to as an “agunah” simply by virtue of them wanting a Get and it not being given alone. As far as I’m aware (and this is based on her claims that I’ve seen, not his) there is no Beis Din that to date has officially pronounced her meagein or called on him to specifically issue a Get. If your Rav is aware of this and persists in calling her an Agunah it’s likely your Rav is simply unaware of Hilchos Gittin. Her wanting it alone is not automatic justification for him needing to give it.

Furthermore, I have primarily been contesting the protesting in front of family members, doxxing family members, and sending harassing messages to his family which is wrong, reprehensible behavior, and completely illegal. If you are doing it you are the problem and should be ashamed of yourself. I can’t believe there is a Rav who condones that.

[aygart]

However, it's dishonest to use one extreme example of pressure to discredit an entire pressure campaign.

It can however tell us about those organizing them.

[S209]

There was an important qualifier in his psak, that the pressure be beneficial, which you yourself just acknowledged.
Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.
However, it's dishonest to use one extreme example of pressure to discredit an entire pressure campaign.

Any pressure that could be beneficial regardless of downside is ok according to your Rav? That is obviously incorrect.

You say you worry about the damage to the innocent, but there are innocent people being harassed and threatened because of your underhanded tactics that you seem to be completely fine with. Why don’t you call it out?

[casualchurner]

It can however tell us about those organizing them.

If the people who posted those pictures are the same people who organized the pressure campaigns. Do you know that to be true? And if you'd say yes, then how do you know that? I'm not asking to attack you, but I would like to sincerely know whether that is fact or not.

[S209]

If the people who posted those pictures are the same people who organized the pressure campaigns. Do you know that to be true? And if you'd say yes, then how do you know that? I'm not asking to attack you, but I would like to sincerely know whether that is fact or not.

They may not be all of the people who organized them, but all of the people who doxxed family members were pushing the protests as well.

[AsherO]

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.

That statement is equally true regardless of whether a get was given (yet) or not. The dysfunction and trauma is likely the same.

[S209]

If the people who posted those pictures are the same people who organized the pressure campaigns. Do you know that to be true? And if you'd say yes, then how do you know that? I'm not asking to attack you, but I would like to sincerely know whether that is fact or not.

Also, you aren’t doing this lishma at all, it’s not to help the children (to whom you’re actively causing additional damage), you’re seemingly doing it to help a friend. Why don’t you try doing something constructive like reaching out to the other side which you have admitted to not trying? That would probably help the situation with far less collateral damage than the doxxing and harassment of the children’s extended family.

Forgive me if I doubt your righteousness.

[casualchurner]

Any pressure that could be beneficial regardless of downside is ok according to your Rav? That is obviously incorrect.

You say you worry about the damage to the innocent, but there are innocent people being harassed and threatened because of your underhanded tactics that you seem to be completely fine with. Why don’t you call it out?

Ha ha, again you're misquoting me and then just using that to attack me and my Rav, a cheap trick. I never said 'beneficial regardless of downside' and neither did he. You need to look at the entire picture and decide whether the action is beneficial as a whole. I want to be clear: I think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is wrong, and I think harassing innocent people is wrong, and I gladly call that out right here right now.

I'm curious what 'underhanded tactics' you're attributing to me that you think I'm fine with and that are harassing innocent people. Please clearly specify instead of throwing around cheap and ambiguous allegations. It's easy to simply call me a bigot. Explain to me and the entire forum why you're justified in making that claim.

[S209]

If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

I don’t think I could have been clearer. I don’t know all of the facts, or even most, but the little I do is enough to show that the harassment of family members is completely not ok. Anybody who participates in said harassment is a Rasha at best.

[casualchurner]

Also, you aren’t doing this lishma at all, it’s not to help the children (to whom you’re actively causing additional damage), you’re seemingly doing it to help a friend. Why don’t you try doing something constructive like reaching out to the other side which you have admitted to not trying? That would probably help the situation with far less collateral damage than the doxxing and harassment of the children’s extended family.

Forgive me if I doubt your righteousness.

Again, stop attributing things to me that you have no idea whether I've done or not. It's dishonest and it shows your bias. Doxxing is wrong, harassment is wrong. How am I causing additional damage to the children with my own actions? Tell me exactly what I'm doing that's hurting their kids. C'mon, give me specifics.

[Lurker]

I don’t think I could have been clearer. I don’t know all of the facts, or even most, but the little I do is enough to show that the harassment of family members is completely not ok. Anybody who participates in said harassment is a Rasha at best.

That's a pretty strong statement. You're saying this based on Torah, or sentimentality?

[avromie7]

Just my thoughts here: I read through all this. I got to say, it's surprising to see the amount of times certain folks here are stating as 'fact' things that they've heard or things that they preface with 'as far as I know' or 'as far as I'm aware'. I'll admit, I do have a personal connection to Aaron's wife's family. And I've heard plenty of stuff from their family. But, I'm also an attorney, and my nature is to be skeptical of what people say, and try to independently verify what I'm told.

So, for example, yes, I heard that Aaron told their oldest daughter that he would kill her mother (Aaron's wife), and I was also told that, because of that, Aaron's wife filed for a protective order against him (which seems like a reasonable thing to do if (huge if) the allegation is true). So, I went on my own and actually checked court records in Palm Beach County, FL, and I found the case. I did see that a hearing was scheduled in relation to a protective order and that a minor would be testifying during the hearing. However, because this is a family law case, most of the record is sealed to everyone but the parties and the attorneys on the case. So, to be honest and consistent, I don't know whether Aaron actually said that to his daughter or not. However, for anyone here to say that the above is factual or not or to say that the above is a misrepresentation of the facts (I'm talking to you @S209), I just don't see how you could independently and honestly come to that conclusion.

I have been posting all the different posters and photos on these protests on my social media over the past few weeks. Before I did so, I called my Rav and asked him if it's ok al pi halacha, since it would seem that hilchos lashon hara could be seriously implicated here. I told him that I've heard a lot of things, but I honestly don't know what is true and what is not. I told him that I do know 2 facts:
1. The couple did get divorced in 'secular' court in Florida. This is a fact that can be independently verified by simply checking the Palm Beach County, FL court records, which I've done; and
2. Aaron's wife, today, wants a get, but he won't give it to her (for whatever his reasons are). This seems pretty obvious at this point, but I still verified it directly with her (and I believe it's reasonable to verify her own state of mind with her, feel free to disagree with me on that if you want).

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get. If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.

I have no idea who your rav is, but anyone allowing protests based on a woman asking for a get; regardless of other factors is probably more worried about "social justice" than halacha.

[casualchurner]

I don’t think I could have been clearer. I don’t know all of the facts, or even most, but the little I do is enough to show that the harassment of family members is completely not ok. Anybody who participates in said harassment is a Rasha at best.

Hey, if you know certain things to be fact, and you're absolutely sure that they're fact (not just that you heard from this person or from that person), then you're fully entitled to let those facts guide you. I'm being guided by what I know to be absolute fact, which I admit is not much. I agree that harassment of innocent family members is completely not ok. But you do realize that harassment and innocence can be gray areas.

[casualchurner]

I have no idea who your rav is, but anyone allowing protests based on a woman asking for a get; regardless of other factors is probably more worried about "social justice" than halacha.

And based on the fact that a state court in Florida already ordered and approved the divorce. You think courts in the US freely hand out divorces and rule on matters such as custody and support simply because one side asked the court to rule a certain way?

[S209]

Again, stop attributing things to me that you have no idea whether I've done or not. It's dishonest and it shows your bias. Doxxing is wrong, harassment is wrong. How am I causing additional damage to the children with my own actions? Tell me exactly what I'm doing that's hurting their kids. C'mon, give me specifics.

Shows my bias? I’ve never hidden it. I’ve said repeatedly all I know is half of one side of the story.

Good, I’m glad you called it out. Many haven’t, and your post gave the impression you were ok with it. I’m glad to hear you aren’t.

Seeing their father and grandparents/relatives getting yelled at publicly and being told such from others is not likely a positive experience.

[casualchurner]

I have no idea who your rav is, but anyone allowing protests based on a woman asking for a get; regardless of other factors is probably more worried about "social justice" than halacha.

Again, misquoting and not including my entire argument (a court already ordered and approved of the divorce).

[S209]

And based on the fact that a state court in Florida already ordered and approved the divorce. You think courts in the US freely hand out divorces and rule on matters such as custody and support simply because one side asked the court to rule a certain way?

They definitely would issue a divorce without requiring a Psak Beis Din first, which occurred here according to R’ Efram Goldberg in his interview. This has no bearing on the Halachic requirement of issuing a get, and stating otherwise is pure ignorance.

[S209]

That's a pretty strong statement. You're saying this based on Torah, or sentimentality?

Halacha. Moral compass. The law.

Show me where the law or Halacha allow doxxing and threatening messages to family members. Its abuse, plain and simple.