Author Topic: Get Refusal  (Read 70266 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #340 on: March 18, 2021, 04:57:12 PM »
Hey, if you know certain things to be fact, and you're absolutely sure that they're fact (not just that you heard from this person or from that person), then you're fully entitled to let those facts guide you. I'm being guided by what I know to be absolute fact, which I admit is not much. I agree that harassment of innocent family members is completely not ok. But you do realize that harassment and innocence can be gray areas.
It is uncontested absolute fact that this is not a case of someone who has withheld a get from his wife for years after the divorce was settled or has been pronounced a meagein. They are undisputedly still in the process of sorting things out.

That and that alone should serve as enough for any reasonable person to realize that bombarding a family member with abusive text messages is harassment and unacceptable.
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Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #341 on: March 18, 2021, 04:59:02 PM »
Shows my bias? I’ve never hidden it. I’ve said repeatedly all I know is half of one side of the story.

Good, I’m glad you called it out. Many haven’t, and your post gave the impression you were ok with it. I’m glad to hear you aren’t.

Seeing their father and grandparents/relatives getting yelled at publicly and being told such from others is not likely a positive experience.
Forgive me, 'bias' was a bad word choice. I'm looking for consistency and honesty in arguments.
I try not to concern myself with what 'many' people have or have not done. Many people voted for Biden, many people voted for Trump. Strength may be in numbers, but truth definitely isn't (see Bible story of Abraham for good example).
I think protests can be beneficial, but very often are destructive and detrimental. The devil is really in the details of how the protest is held. I think the Boca protest was held in a formal, organized, and respectful manner (albeit many people would disagree with the purpose and goal of that rally). The Lakewood rally was disorganized chaos, so I don't think that was too beneficial.

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #342 on: March 18, 2021, 05:01:28 PM »
Halacha. Moral compass. The law.

Show me where the law or Halacha allow doxxing and threatening messages to family members. Its abuse, plain and simple.
Now that would be an interesting topic to find in any halacha sefer.

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #343 on: March 18, 2021, 05:01:43 PM »
Ha ha, again you're misquoting me and then just using that to attack me and my Rav, a cheap trick. I never said 'beneficial regardless of downside' and neither did he. You need to look at the entire picture and decide whether the action is beneficial as a whole. I want to be clear: I think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is wrong, and I think harassing innocent people is wrong, and I gladly call that out right here right now.
You said anything beneficial, without a qualifier. Obviously I understood that to include the underhanded tactics I was decrying all along. If it had a qualifier you should have included that, but to accuse me of misquoting is not ok.

I'm curious what 'underhanded tactics' you're attributing to me that you think I'm fine with and that are harassing innocent people. Please clearly specify instead of throwing around cheap and ambiguous allegations. It's easy to simply call me a bigot. Explain to me and the entire forum why you're justified in making that claim.
I have been very clear as to what I believe is off limits, and I’m glad that you have condemned them and said you aren’t participating.
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Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #344 on: March 18, 2021, 05:05:29 PM »
I think protests can be beneficial, but very often are destructive and detrimental. The devil is really in the details of how the protest is held. I think the Boca protest was held in a formal, organized, and respectful manner (albeit many people would disagree with the purpose and goal of that rally). The Lakewood rally was disorganized chaos, so I don't think that was too beneficial.
I don’t have much knowledge of the Boca protest, but the Lakewood protest was what I really took issue with- it’s his family’s home, not his, and no local Rabbanim have come out on the record as backing them.

Protests in general should never be undertaken lightly, unless the case is black and white, which definitely does not appear to be the case here (in Boca as well), and yes I understand R’ Efram Goldberg disagrees. Using protests and public defamation as coercion to achieve a victory in a fight is no less abusive than withholding a get, for sure.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #345 on: March 18, 2021, 05:07:56 PM »
Someone posted one side's perspective. @S209 posted the other side's perspective and made it very clear that it was coming from that side.

I think it is absolutely appropriate to balance the widespread dissemination of one side's perspective with the other side's perspective.
+1

Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.
Perhaps the harm outweighs the benefit, but why would it not be beneficial?

One is not referred to as an “agunah” simply by virtue of them wanting a Get and it not being given alone
I'm not sure if that's true. AFAIK the term Agunah simply means stranded ('Chained'), and it applies equally to women whose husbands are incapable of giving a Get or justly unwilling to.

I have no idea who your rav is, but anyone allowing protests based on a woman asking for a get; regardless of other factors is probably more worried about "social justice" than halacha.
I understand what you're trying to say, but Halacha is merely a tool to define the ultimate goal, which is indeed social justice. It's just often very different than prevailing perception of social justice.

They definitely would issue a divorce without requiring a Psak Beis Din first, which occurred here according to R’ Efram Goldberg in his interview. This has no bearing on the Halachic requirement of issuing a get, and stating otherwise is pure ignorance.
There is definitely a lot of weight given to the state and finality of their separation, I think a court ruling can have a lot of bearing on that.

Halacha. Moral compass. The law.

Show me where the law or Halacha allow doxxing and threatening messages to family members. Its abuse, plain and simple.
See upthread. It doesn't look like it would apply in this case, but in general Halacha explicitly allows hurting family members to pressure a husband to give a Get.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #346 on: March 18, 2021, 05:08:44 PM »
There was an important qualifier in his psak, that the pressure be beneficial, which you yourself just acknowledged.
Do you think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is beneficial? I think not, and I would venture to say that my Rav, and you, would agree.

From this post it seems clear that your concern is about the effectiveness of the tactic, not the morality.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #347 on: March 18, 2021, 05:15:34 PM »
I could be way off base (wouldn't be the first time), but the vibe I'm getting is that Lakewood is seeing a different beast with this activism than other places. It seems to have sparked an extremely intense resentment, which may be not be translating well to others here who aren't experiencing it firsthand (va'ani b'rosham).
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #348 on: March 18, 2021, 05:17:43 PM »
I understand what you're trying to say, but Halacha is merely a tool to define the ultimate goal, which is indeed social justice. It's just often very different than prevailing perception of social justice.
That's why "social justice" was in quotations.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #349 on: March 18, 2021, 05:19:21 PM »
That's why "social justice" was in quotations.
Fair enough.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #350 on: March 18, 2021, 05:19:43 PM »
They definitely would issue a divorce without requiring a Psak Beis Din first, which occurred here according to R’ Efram Goldberg in his interview. This has no bearing on the Halachic requirement of issuing a get, and stating otherwise is pure ignorance.
Source please?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #351 on: March 18, 2021, 05:21:04 PM »
Source please?
Why would a secular court have any bearing on a requirement to issue a get without a psak from BD?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Saulius

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #352 on: March 18, 2021, 05:21:22 PM »
There was a case where children were taken away because of false abuse allegations. Well known rabonim / Beis Din gave a psak, without hazmana or a chance for the parent to defend themselves. Decade later it was proven false -- but you cannot undue the damage of a parent missing the lives of their children, and vice versa. The side that has more money usually wins, and you can have tens of eidim giving false testimony. The bully wins.

See:
Narcissist: No Custody, No Children!
Abusive Ex Leverages Children Against You

  Parental Alienation: An Attachment-based Model -- if you don't have time listen from the 42 minute mark for a few minutes.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #353 on: March 18, 2021, 05:23:15 PM »

I understand what you're trying to say, but Halacha is merely a tool to define the ultimate goal, which is indeed social justice. It's just often very different than prevailing perception of social justice.

I hate to argue in a thread where we are agreeing, but I think Halacha is about justice, not social justice.

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #354 on: March 18, 2021, 05:26:13 PM »
From this post it seems clear that your concern is about the effectiveness of the tactic, not the morality.
How would you define 'morality'? What you yourself like or don't like, or perhaps what a Rav, who you may respect, states is proper according to halacha?
Morality is G-d given, and I think my Rav is better in tune with what G-d expects of us than what I myself might think, so I'm going to side with his psak.
If your Rav tells you otherwise, then you should definitely follow him (or her, don't wanna potentially offend anyone here).

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #355 on: March 18, 2021, 05:27:41 PM »
(or her, don't wanna potentially offend anyone here).

Oh, the irony...
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Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #356 on: March 18, 2021, 05:28:57 PM »
I hate to argue in a thread where we are agreeing, but I think Halacha is about justice, not social justice.
Agreed!!!!!!! I've always thought that the term 'social justice' is putting a qualifier on justice. Justice shouldn't be qualified, it should be absolute. Society's idea of justice has clearly shifted wildly over the past decade. G-d's justice never has.

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #357 on: March 18, 2021, 05:31:46 PM »
Oh, the irony...
well taken ...was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Although, I'm really not out to offend anyone, I just think we should all be honest in this discussion and stick to what we know to be fact. And if I think someone is mispresenting what I said, then I think it's fair for me to call that out.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #358 on: March 18, 2021, 05:34:45 PM »
How would you define 'morality'? What you yourself like or don't like, or perhaps what a Rav, who you may respect, states is proper according to halacha?
Morality is G-d given, and I think my Rav is better in tune with what G-d expects of us than what I myself might think, so I'm going to side with his psak.
If your Rav tells you otherwise, then you should definitely follow him (or her, don't wanna potentially offend anyone here).

If your Rav paskened that the ends justifies the means, no matter the collateral damage, (which is what you seem to be saying) then I recommend you find a new Rav. What I think is more likely is that you misinterpreted your Rav's psak as a blank check.

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #359 on: March 18, 2021, 05:35:00 PM »
Why would a secular court have any bearing on a requirement to issue a get without a psak from BD?
Don't know, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any bearing. I think you would have to ask a competent Rav who is knowledgeable in these matters that question. I wouldn't definitely say one way or the other whether it does or doesn't since I simply don't know.