Author Topic: Get Refusal  (Read 70235 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #360 on: March 18, 2021, 05:36:10 PM »
I'm not sure if that's true. AFAIK the term Agunah simply means stranded ('Chained'), and it applies equally to women whose husbands are incapable of giving a Get or justly unwilling to.
In contemporary Halachic verbiage Agunah means “chained”, someone who is unable to remarry because of insufficient evidence of a husband’s death or a divorcee who is labeled as such by a Beis Din because of an inability to extract a Get due to circumstances beyond the control of the woman (such as one who refuses to issue a Get months or years after the marriage has been effectively terminated and custody and financial matters are fully settled and refuses to engage in good faith).

There is definitely a lot of weight given to the state and finality of their separation, I think a court ruling can have a lot of bearing on that.
Correct, a court ruling can sometimes be used as evidence of the state of their separation, which is the determining factor. The court ruling is not the deciding factor. In this case, they are very clearly still hashing out details.

See upthread. It doesn't look like it would apply in this case, but in general Halacha explicitly allows hurting family members to pressure a husband to give a Get.
You quoted a Rama which appears to sanction specific remedies against a minor in the father’s custody as an extension of the *refuser himself*, and by omission clearly does *not* allow hurting a family member or any other human merely because it’s “beneficial”. You furthermore brought a case where a father can be prevented from teaching the refuser *himself*, again not allowing collateral damage to others.

The Torah (and law) is very clear in many cases that we do not punish the innocent as a tactic to bait the guilty.
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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #361 on: March 18, 2021, 05:39:39 PM »
I hate to argue in a thread where we are agreeing, but I think Halacha is about justice, not social justice.
I think the term social justice is very vague and it can be construed either way. One could argue the Torah sees social justice as the ultimate justice, merely defining social justice differently than the progressive view of pursuit of utter equality. I just didn't like the way the post I was commenting on could have appeared to claim morality is less important than the Torah, when "אמר לו אביי לרב יוסף: מפני דרכי שלום דאורייתא היא? אמר לו דאורייתא, כל התורה כולה נמי מפני דרכי שלום דכתיב דרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום"
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #362 on: March 18, 2021, 05:41:04 PM »
If your Rav paskened that the ends justifies the means, no matter the collateral damage, (which is what you seen to be saying) then I recommend you find a new Rav. What I think is more likely is that you misinterpreted your Rav's psak as a blank check.
Again (I'm getting so tired of this), my Rav never said 'the ends justify the means, no matter the collateral damage'. Show me where I said that or where it seems I said that above. Please be honest and consistent in the arguments you're making, and stop putting words in my mouth and then arguing against me with those words that you made up.

I've been very clear that my position on this is very limited and restricted. I have serious objections to certain actions people have taken on this, but I think there can be certain actions (like the rally in Boca) that are proper.

Online skyguy918

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #363 on: March 18, 2021, 05:41:27 PM »
It is uncontested absolute fact that this is not a case of someone who has withheld a get from his wife for years after the divorce was settled or has been pronounced a meagein. They are undisputedly still in the process of sorting things out.

That and that alone should serve as enough for any reasonable person to realize that bombarding a family member with abusive text messages is harassment and unacceptable.
Let's put aside any specifics of the case being discussed, as I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of it. What you wrote above is a vague and unusable standard, to the point that anyone can withhold/not accept a get from their spouse and not be called a meagein. I see 3 things above:

'Withheld a get from his wife for years after the divorce has been settled' - What's the exact amount of time required? When is the divorce considered settled if not the date of the secular divorce?
'Has been pronounced a meagein' - Is there a psak BD that creates a chalos shem meagein? Is a seruv from a BD regarding a get what creates a meagein?
'In the process of sorting things out' - Who decides/defines this? If one side feels the other is either being unreasonable, or not participating in the process at all, but the other disagrees, does that leave them 'in the process'?

....(such as one who refuses to issue a Get months or years after the marriage has been effectively terminated and custody and financial matters are fully settled and refuses to engage in good faith).
Do you have a source for this definition?

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #364 on: March 18, 2021, 05:42:17 PM »
Agreed!!!!!!! I've always thought that the term 'social justice' is putting a qualifier on justice. Justice shouldn't be qualified, it should be absolute. Society's idea of justice has clearly shifted wildly over the past decade. G-d's justice never has.
I'm not so sure the Torah disagrees with evolving morality. I think one can argue the Torah would consider slavery immoral nowadays just like adultery and thievery were immoral in Dor Hamabul before the Torah
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #365 on: March 18, 2021, 05:45:48 PM »
Let's put aside any specifics of the case being discussed, as I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of it. What you wrote above is a vague and unusable standard, to the point that anyone can withhold/not accept a get from their spouse and not be called a meagein. I see 3 things above:

'Withheld a get from his wife for years after the divorce has been settled' - What's the exact amount of time required? When is the divorce considered settled if not the date of the secular divorce?
'Has been pronounced a meagein' - Is there a psak BD that creates a chalos shem meagein? Is a seruv from a BD regarding a get what creates a meagein?
'In the process of sorting things out' - Who decides/defines this? If one side feels the other is either being unreasonable, or not participating in the process at all, but the other disagrees, does that leave them 'in the process'?
To answer all of your questions: A Beis Din makes this pronouncement.
Do you have a source for this definition?
Yes, a Rav I spoke with. He said it’s the accepted standard among all Botei Din. Are you aware of a Beis Din that would refer to any woman who has requested a Get but not yet received it an “Agunah”?
Quote from: YitzyS
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #366 on: March 18, 2021, 05:50:24 PM »
Again (I'm getting so tired of this), my Rav never said 'the ends justify the means, no matter the collateral damage'. Show me where I said that or where it seems I said that above. Please be honest and consistent in the arguments you're making, and stop putting words in my mouth and then arguing against me with those words that you made up.

I've been very clear that my position on this is very limited and restricted. I have serious objections to certain actions people have taken on this, but I think there can be certain actions (like the rally in Boca) that are proper.

You said that based on your Rav's psak you support using any effective means.

When challenged about a specific action taken by some in this story, you responded by questioning the effectiveness of the tactic, not by condemning it regardless of the effectiveness.

Online skyguy918

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #367 on: March 18, 2021, 05:50:42 PM »
To answer all of your questions: A Beis Din makes this pronouncement.Yes, a Rav I spoke with. He said it’s the accepted standard among all Botei Din. Are you aware of a Beis Din that would refer to any woman who has requested a Get but not yet received it an “Agunah”?
Surely if all of this is black and white and muskam lakol, you can point to a sefer that talks about this. I'm not holding in the sugya even the slightest. But at the same time you'll forgive me if seeing some random person I don't know post that they spoke to their unnamed Rov about the topic isn't quite up to the standard of 'source' I was hoping for. I'm not holding the opposite view, I just don't see you supporting your view beyond stating it.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #368 on: March 18, 2021, 05:52:42 PM »
You quoted a Rama which appears to sanction specific remedies against a minor in the father’s custody as an extension of the *refuser himself*, and by omission clearly does *not* allow hurting a family member or any other human merely because it’s “beneficial”. You furthermore brought a case where a father can be prevented from teaching the refuser *himself*, again not allowing collateral damage to others.

The Torah (and law) is very clear in many cases that we do not punish the innocent as a tactic to bait the guilty.

1. There is no mention of custody

2. I don't think it's fair to infer from that omission.

3. The שות בנימין זאב ס פח that the Rama is predicated upon commands other people not to teach the son of the refuser

4. Not always. The Torah does condone collective punishment in certain cases. See Amalek for example. Modern justice definitely tabooed it further.

I do agree that in this case it does not appear to be merited based on the picture emanting from this thread. I don't have any position on this story other than mercy for all involved, but I care about the general principles.

You said that based on your Rav's psak you support using any effective means.

When challenged about a specific action taken by some in this story, you responded by questioning the effectiveness of the tactic, not by condemning it regardless of the effectiveness.
It appears that when saying beneficial he meant appropriate. There is no reason to assume the actions discussed were not beneficial, and he seems to be ruling them out based on downside outweighing the benefit, not lack of benefit
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #369 on: March 18, 2021, 05:58:49 PM »
It appears that when saying beneficial he meant appropriate. There is no reason to assume the actions discussed were not beneficial, and he seems to be ruling them out based on downside outweighing the benefit, not lack of benefit

That's a defendable interpretation of his posts, but he can't claim that someone who understood him to mean what he actually said is misquoting him.

In this post, it seems that he is once again defending the tactic.
How would you define 'morality'? What you yourself like or don't like, or perhaps what a Rav, who you may respect, states is proper according to halacha?
Morality is G-d given, and I think my Rav is better in tune with what G-d expects of us than what I myself might think, so I'm going to side with his psak.
If your Rav tells you otherwise, then you should definitely follow him (or her, don't wanna potentially offend anyone here).

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #370 on: March 18, 2021, 06:12:40 PM »
I'm not so sure the Torah disagrees with evolving morality. I think one can argue the Torah would consider slavery immoral nowadays just like adultery and thievery were immoral in Dor Hamabul before the Torah
I think nowadays is the key. I don't remember the exact wording, but don't we say somewhere in gemarah that when someone acquires a slave they're really acquiring a master for themselves? Just thinking here, but could it be that the slavery that you see nowadays, or even in the US in the past, would be abhorrent to the torah?

Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #371 on: March 18, 2021, 06:14:58 PM »
You said that based on your Rav's psak you support using any effective means.

When challenged about a specific action taken by some in this story, you responded by questioning the effectiveness of the tactic, not by condemning it regardless of the effectiveness.
Where did I say this without qualification? Show me where and I'll gladly retract it.

Offline lubaby

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #372 on: March 18, 2021, 06:15:21 PM »
It’s not even Friday yet.

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #373 on: March 18, 2021, 06:17:46 PM »
Surely if all of this is black and white and muskam lakol, you can point to a sefer that talks about this. I'm not holding in the sugya even the slightest. But at the same time you'll forgive me if seeing some random person I don't know post that they spoke to their unnamed Rov about the topic isn't quite up to the standard of 'source' I was hoping for. I'm not holding the opposite view, I just don't see you supporting your view beyond stating it.
Fair, I was disputing an asserted view, truthfully neither of us have brought valid sources. I honestly am not holding in the Sugya at all either, as I have said upthread.
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Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #374 on: March 18, 2021, 06:17:58 PM »
That's a defendable interpretation of his posts, but he can't claim that someone who understood him to mean what he actually said is misquoting him.

In this post, it seems that he is once again defending the tactic.
Trying to see where in that quote I defend harassing people. Care to share? I think it's dangerous to take someone's statement (that you may not understand) and then extrapolate as to what you think that person would believe on an expanded matter. If my post is not clear to you, then please ask me to clarify and I'll gladly do so.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 06:21:09 PM by casualchurner »

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #375 on: March 18, 2021, 06:20:32 PM »
I don't remember the exact wording, but don't we say somewhere in gemarah that when someone acquires a slave they're really acquiring a master for themselves?
Ma(mi) Shekana Eved Kana Raboi?  ;)
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Offline casualchurner

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #376 on: March 18, 2021, 06:22:39 PM »
Ma(mi) Shekana Eved Kana Raboi?  ;)
No, it's not that. Something similar...

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #377 on: March 18, 2021, 06:28:39 PM »
Where did I say this without qualification? Show me where and I'll gladly retract it.

Here -

My Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get.

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #378 on: March 18, 2021, 06:40:59 PM »
I think nowadays is the key. I don't remember the exact wording, but don't we say somewhere in gemarah that when someone acquires a slave they're really acquiring a master for themselves? Just thinking here, but could it be that the slavery that you see nowadays, or even in the US in the past, would be abhorrent to the torah?

כל הקונה עבד עברי כקונה אדון לעצמו

There are definitely forms of slavery that are fairer and more benevolent than others, and the civil war was precipitated in part by the North being influenced by the outlier stories of runaways who were abused and assumed they resembled the broader sentiment while the South saw most of their slaves as relatively content, and the Torah absolutely does call for utmost dignity in the relationship with slaves, but I still think there is room to say the norms of right and wrong evolve and as long as they are consistent with the Torah (unlike gay marriage for example) the Torah would consider them morally obligatory, just as the Torah considered adultery and thievery punishable even before the Torah was given.

I can also hear an opposite argument that that was only prior to the Torah being given and once the Torah was given morality cannot evolve, or that those morals were only true because they would later be in the Torah, but I think looking at various Takanos Chazal meant to promote general wellbeing such as Kesuva and Cherem Drabeinu Gershom would suggest there is room for morality to evolve. 

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline S209

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Re: Get Refusal
« Reply #379 on: March 18, 2021, 06:42:28 PM »
1. There is no mention of custody

2. I don't think it's fair to infer from that omission.

3. The שות בנימין זאב ס פח that the Rama is predicated upon commands other people not to teach the son of the refuser

4. Not always. The Torah does condone collective punishment in certain cases. See Amalek for example. Modern justice definitely tabooed it further.

I do agree that in this case it does not appear to be merited based on the picture emanting from this thread. I don't have any position on this story other than mercy for all involved, but I care about the general principles.
1. I will need to check the nosei keilim later but I’m fairly certain I’m correct and the Rama is referring to minor children in the father’s household.

2. Explain? The Rama lays out the various remedies available, and says Beis Din can enact whatever they want on the transgressor himself short of nidui. He also lays out criteria of hurting the transgressor (through attacking *his personal obligations* of circumcising his son, burying them, and teaching them Torah) despite the collateral damage to others (what I take to mean minors in the transgressor’s household). That appears to be the upper limit of the allowance- especially with use of the word “afilu”.

3. You are correct, I misquoted what you wrote. However, this refers to the father’s (the transgressor himself) obligation to teach Torah to his son- not as a wanton act against a third party as a form of coercion.

4. Amalek is a poor example, they are all considered to be perpetually guilty. They have the ability to be megayer as well.

I believe you are learning the wrong lesson from the Rama. He is showing how far one can go in attacking the transgressor *himself*, to the point where it can affect others. Of course he would not allow one to attack an innocent third party directly merely because it is “beneficial”. The concept is preposterous.
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