Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products

[YitzyS]

<citation not needed>

Fixed that.

Simplicity.

[iwlw2]

There's a lot of valid points being made, but if I could put in my own two cents... I think if there is general agreement that:

1. There is possible harm that can result from smoking weed especially for younger folk who have not yet developed mature self-control, (irrespective of whether other things such as cigarettes and alcohol present similar or worse risks).

2. Regardless of whether it is THE end all solution, a kol korei can have some effectiveness on some people.

3. There is a limited window in which to try and fight anything, and that is certainly before certain attitudes and trends take root in our community.

Then it would seem to be a valuable thing to try and make the severity and Rabbinic attitude towards this clear to all, what's the downside? Perhaps something similar could and should have been done at other times about other things, but whatever happened in those battles should not determine how one attempts to fight this one, no?

[Euclid]

So, don't address the cancer, Dr. Oncologist, it's been there for awhile now. Let's focus on the hang nail he got this morning.

Cigarettes have been addressed for decades. There's been significant progress on that front. Most bachurim do not smoke regularly. And even the ones that do, by the time they're of marriageable age, most of them have stopped.

[S209]

Most of this does not apply to cigarettes.

Actually, I’d say most do. Which parts don’t?

[Yehuda57]

Cigarettes have been addressed for decades. There's been significant progress on that front. Most bachurim do not smoke regularly. And even the ones that do, by the time they're of marriageable age, most of them have stopped.

Do you think that's from kol kores or societal changes that seeped into the Yeshivah world?

[S209]

All the while (half the?) bochurim in Lakewood and other yeshivot are taking cigarette breaks on regular -- and even hourly -- basis.

The vast majority of yeshivos in Lakewood currently have a zero tolerance policy toward cigarettes. You’re simply misinformed.

[PlatinumGuy]

The vast majority of yeshivisos currently have a zero tolerance policy toward cigarettes.

I think you're defining a Yeshiva as high school, he's referring to guys over 20 in yeshivas you would refer to as Beis Medrash...

[AJK]

I think you're defining a Yeshiva as high school, he's referring to guys over 20 in yeshivas you would refer to as Beis Medrash...

That's exactly to what I'm referring.

[S209]

Do you think that's from kol kores or societal changes that seeped into the Yeshivah world?

Much of it is from the attitude of the Hanhala in Yeshivos. Where that came from is a different question- likely heightened medical awareness of the dangers of smoking and decades of activism. “Societal changes” isn’t the same as increased medical awareness.

Some would argue the Yeshivish community has become more insular as secular society has become more open and tolerant. I’m not saying whether that’s generally a good thing or bad thing, but broad societal changes don’t always make inroads in the frum community.

[PlatinumGuy]

All the while (half the?) bochurim in Lakewood and other yeshivot are taking cigarette breaks on regular -- and even hourly -- basis.

I would be shocked if more than 10 or 20% of yeshiva guys nowadays are smoking on any kind of consistent basis. Doesn't make it OK, just don't think it's as widespread as you're suggesting.

[S209]

I think you're defining a Yeshiva as high school, he's referring to guys over 20 in yeshivas you would refer to as Beis Medrash...

Even in BMG the percentage of bochurim/Yungeleit who (publicly/regularly) smoke is vanishingly small. There are several thousand talmidim and probably dozens of smokers.

[Lurker]

I'm going to leave it at this:

There are religious arguments to be made for or against the recreational use of a number of substances. There are health arguments to be made for or against those same substances. Sometimes, they overlap, but for the most part, they are two distinct issues. Most of the arguments here are making an incoherent cholent out of the two.

From a medical perspective, consuming marijuana is safer than consuming cigarettes, alcohol, and most mood-altering substances. It is also less chemically addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, and most mood-altering substances. Like other things, the danger is greater when it is consumed by younger people whose brains have not fully developed. How safe it is for any individual will depend on that person. It CAN be used as a gateway drug, but it is not inherently a gateway drug.

From a religious perspective, it can be classified among a myriad of things which could possibly distract from Avodas Hashem. IMO, there is nothing about marijuana that makes it rank higher than most of those other things, many of which are accepted mainstays in our lives. Further, it is my opinion that a KK like this one, where anyone who uses marijuana is deemed an oisvarf, does much more harm than good to the respect our young people will have towards the Rabbonus in general. When something that is relatively minor gets this much attention and extreme overreaction, while greater dangers are ignored, people stop taking the signatories seriously. The lack of nuance is, unfortunately, not surprised and is already expected.

(As an aside, my personal opinion is that the lack of nuance in general in our communities is the source of most of our "crises.")

[AJK]

I would be shocked if more than 10 or 20% of yeshiva guys nowadays are smoking on any kind of consistent basis. Doesn't make it OK, just don't think it's as widespread as you're suggesting.

I didn't put a percentage on it. I questioned whether it was half. Could be more, could be less. But that's beside the point:

1) Cigarettes are far worse for one's health than marijuana; and
2) The number of people who are smoking is likely far greater than the people ingesting marijuana.


...and yet the people doing the latter are no longer to be considered part of our community, shouldn't marry our sons and daughters, and should be cast aside like the reshaim they apparently are, while the far more dangerous of the two substances is left an apparent free-for-all. Is that because some of these rabbeim smoke? Is it because smoking is accepted and weed isn't YET? I didn't look who signed.

[S209]

1) Cigarettes are far worse for one's health than marijuana; and
2) The number of people who are smoking is likely far greater than the people ingesting marijuana.

That’s true, but we are coming from a place where it was accepted and normal for Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbeim to smoke, where it is currently completely unacceptable. Half or more of Yeshiva bochurim in the old days were smoking, where now it’s probably less than 10% and shrinking (though vaping is quickly taking its place).

Marijuana usage has skyrocketed over the last decade in our community, even though it’s still less than 10%. Now would be the time to take a hard stance on it if you want to nip it in the bud.

When I say community I am referring to the Yeshivish community in the tristate area.

[Something Fishy]

This is a serious question, not rhetorical. Has a kol kore or blanket ban ever proved an effective strategy?

The united front against TV years ago was extremely effective. Having a TV in the house is unheard of in many, many communities. (Of course this is without getting into the whole internet discussion. But for many decades this held true.)

But in general, as a wise man once said: there are two things in life that you wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole if you know what went into them: hot dogs and a kol korah.

[Randomex]

If they weren't illegal, what would y'all say about psychedelics?

[S209]

...and yet the people doing the latter are no longer to be considered part of our community, shouldn't marry our sons and daughters, and should be cast aside like the reshaim they apparently are, while the far more dangerous of the two substances is left an apparent free-for-all. Is that because some of these rabbeim smoke? Is it because smoking is accepted and weed isn't YET? I didn't look who signed.

After seeing your edit, it’s clear you are simply unaware of the extent that smoking acceptance has plummeted in recent years. Most girls would never marry a smoker and smoking among rebbeim is virtually nonexistent. It’s only declining. The amount of married smokers is negligible and shrinking.

[AJK]

That’s true, but we are coming from a place where it was accepted and normal for Roshei Yeshiva and Rebbeim to smoke, where it is currently completely unacceptable. Half or more of Yeshiva bochurim in the old days were smoking, where now it’s probably less than 10% and shrinking (though vaping is quickly taking its place).

Marijuana usage has skyrocketed over the last decade in our community, even though it’s still less than 10%. Now would be the time to take a hard stance on it if you want to nip it in the bud.

When I say community I am referring to the Yeshivish community in the tristate area.

I just disagree that less than 10% of the yeshiva world smokes -- and, yes, smoking includes vaping, which is arguably even worse. You can't just dismiss vaping out of hand when discussing cigarettes vs marijuana. But no point in arguing over metzios, either I'm right or wrong, but again it doesn't change my underlying point.

[Lurker]

After seeing your edit, it’s clear you are simply unaware of the extent that smoking acceptance has plummeted in recent years. Most girls would never marry a smoker and smoking among rebbeim is virtually nonexistent. It’s only declining. The amount of married smokers is negligible and shrinking.

And the difference between personal preference and a KK.....?

[PlatinumGuy]

I didn't put a percentage on it. I questioned whether it was half. Could be more, could be less. But that's beside the point:

1) Cigarettes are far worse for one's health than marijuana; and
2) The number of people who are smoking is likely far greater than the people ingesting marijuana.

I'm not disagreeing. I think there is broader problem at play, that in many ways not being frum is deemed far worse than elementary human and Jewish decency. Being high is seen as less 'frum', like a woman wearing pants, but smoking is merely murderous, like the celebrated 'Frum' swindlers and criminals.

In a way, it's how some saw skipping shul as unconscionable despite it being an infinitely more serious safety hazard. (From extreme cases of positive symptomatic Covid carriers and down to shuls that think obeying public health consensus is prost)

Marijuana usage has skyrocketed over the last decade in our community, even though it’s still less than 10%.

I think the number of 18yos who've smoked weed at least once is closer to 50% already if not higher, but I could be wrong. It's changing faster than we realize.