Author Topic: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products  (Read 33647 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #200 on: March 17, 2021, 01:26:39 PM »
I hear you, but Lakewood is not South Fl.

I didn't grow up in South FL. Banning still doesn't work. See (pick your crisis) for results.
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #201 on: March 17, 2021, 01:27:24 PM »
I didn't grow up in South FL. Banning still doesn't work. See (pick your crisis) for results.
Maybe. I'm not in that line.

Offline yerushabubby

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #202 on: March 17, 2021, 01:50:25 PM »
  Banning still doesn't work. See (pick your crisis) for results.

Part of the reason why it doesn't work for so many issues is that those problems were firmly entrenched in our communities before the Rabbonim said anything publicly about them.  Here they are obviously trying to prevent a problem, rather than stopping an existing one.  Those already involved in marijuana use and distribution will likely ignore what the Rabbonim are saying, but it will likely prevent (at least some) others from getting involved in this newly legal business.

Offline iwlw2

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #203 on: March 17, 2021, 01:52:00 PM »
I didn't grow up in South FL. Banning still doesn't work. See (pick your crisis) for results.
I daresay all (or at least most) of the signatories are well aware that banning on its own will not make the problem disappear. The Kol Korei is there for whatever limited effect it can have as one of a very small amount of tools in the communal toolbox. There are certainly many things that can and should be done on a more personal yeshiva/shul and even family and individual basis, which I think everyone recognizes and agrees with. But even assuming almost no benefit, what the downside of the Kol Korei?

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #204 on: March 17, 2021, 01:57:07 PM »
I daresay all (or at least most) of the signatories are well aware that banning on its own will not make the problem disappear. The Kol Korei is there for whatever limited effect it can have as one of a very small amount of tools in the communal toolbox. There are certainly many things that can and should be done on a more personal yeshiva/shul and even family and individual basis, which I think everyone recognizes and agrees with. But even assuming almost no benefit, what the downside of the Kol Korei?

The downside is that when you have something else important to say, and you have a chance at it being effective, there are those who aren't listening anymore. In order to be a leader, you need to be an effective communicator. When you put your name on something that isn't effective, it diminishes the effectiveness of your leadership going forward.

(Sorry, I used that word a lot.)
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #205 on: March 17, 2021, 01:59:57 PM »
Part of the reason why it doesn't work for so many issues is that those problems were firmly entrenched in our communities before the Rabbonim said anything publicly about them.  Here they are obviously trying to prevent a problem, rather than stopping an existing one.  Those already involved in marijuana use and distribution will likely ignore what the Rabbonim are saying, but it will likely prevent (at least some) others from getting involved in this newly legal business.

Do you think the people it will work for need a Kol Koreh in order to listen to their Rov or RY's advice?
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Offline iwlw2

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #206 on: March 17, 2021, 02:04:09 PM »
The downside is that when you have something else important to say, and you have a chance at it being effective, there are those who aren't listening anymore. In order to be a leader, you need to be an effective communicator. When you put your name on something that isn't effective, it diminishes the effectiveness of your leadership going forward.

(Sorry, I used that word a lot.)
I hear you, but if you are saying (and I'm agreeing BTW) that in general Kol Koreis and bans dont really work for these kinds of things, you're not losing something that was effective in any case. And I don't think anyone is going to have a diminished respect for a leader who turns to them directly, in a more personal setting such as I described,  due to their having signed on a Kol Korei (or two or ten). Yet there is definitely some value in having a clear on the record statement with across the board support stating even what might seem to be the obvious on a communal level.

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #207 on: March 17, 2021, 02:23:53 PM »
Part of the problem is that it might not be obvious to everyone that marijuana is a danger to our communities - after all, now it's legal!  That is the benefit of putting out a kol koreh in such instances - to make it clear to everyone.  Those that choose to ignore it, realize that they are going against the rabbonim, with whatever consequences come with that.

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #208 on: March 17, 2021, 02:57:18 PM »
Yet there is definitely some value in having a clear on the record statement with across the board support stating even what might seem to be the obvious on a communal level.
Part of the problem is that it might not be obvious to everyone that marijuana is a danger to our communities - after all, now it's legal!  That is the benefit of putting out a kol koreh in such instances - to make it clear to everyone.  Those that choose to ignore it, realize that they are going against the rabbonim, with whatever consequences come with that.

1. I have an issue with Kol Korehs. I think they are overused, abused, ineffective, and counterproductive. Full stop.
2. I have an issue with banning things outright. I don't think it works. Just a personal opinion.
3. I have an issue with THIS Kol Koreh in particular. First, I think the extreme language puts the issue of marijuana in the same league as the worst things we can do. I believe the lack of nuance will backfire. Second, I think that having this on record won't help anything, especially when these same yeshivos and high school will be honoring dispensary chain owners at their dinners in a few years, and putting their names on newly renovated buildings. Third (and connected to the other points), the ban is overarching and leaves no room for any of these Rabbonim or Roshei Yeshivos to deal with issues that arise when the ban is ignored by some. Anything short of kicking someone out of Lakewood for disobeying makes them look like hypocrites and undermines their leadership abilities in the future.

I don't live in this world, so what I say may seem absurd to many here. My personal opinion, which is worth less the virtual ink I write it with, is that there would have been a much more effective way to get the point across, and with possibly better results. Something along the lines of, "We want to address the recent legalization of marijuana in our area. We would like to inform the public that according to Daas Torah, recreational consumption is counter halacha, for the following reasons: XYZ. Further, it most certainly has absolutely no place in our yeshivos and schools, and anyone found to be associated with its use, will be dealt with accordingly."
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #209 on: March 17, 2021, 03:03:00 PM »
1. I have an issue with Kol Korehs. I think they are overused, abused, ineffective, and counterproductive. Full stop.
2. I have an issue with banning things outright. I don't think it works. Just a personal opinion.
3. I have an issue with THIS Kol Koreh in particular. First, I think the extreme language puts the issue of marijuana in the same league as the worst things we can do. I believe the lack of nuance will backfire. Second, I think that having this on record won't help anything, especially when these same yeshivos and high school will be honoring dispensary chain owners at their dinners in a few years, and putting their names on newly renovated buildings. Third (and connected to the other points), the ban is overarching and leaves no room for any of these Rabbonim or Roshei Yeshivos to deal with issues that arise when the ban is ignored by some. Anything short of kicking someone out of Lakewood for disobeying makes them look like hypocrites and undermines their leadership abilities in the future.

I don't live in this world, so what I say may seem absurd to many here. My personal opinion, which is worth less the virtual ink I write it with, is that there would have been a much more effective way to get the point across, and with possibly better results. Something along the lines of, "We want to address the recent legalization of marijuana in our area. We would like to inform the public that according to Daas Torah, recreational consumption is counter halacha, for the following reasons: XYZ. Further, it most certainly has absolutely no place in our yeshivos and schools, and anyone found to be associated with its use, will be dealt with accordingly."

I think that you would do well keeping this in mind more.
You're most likely right. I don't speak Lakewood. I'm just reading without local context, aided by clickbait headlines.
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #210 on: March 17, 2021, 03:08:02 PM »
I think that you would do well keeping this in mind more.
I don't live in this world, so what I say may seem absurd to many here. My personal opinion, which is worth less the virtual ink I write it with...
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #211 on: March 17, 2021, 03:55:29 PM »
1. I have an issue with Kol Korehs. I think they are overused, abused, ineffective, and counterproductive. Full stop.
2. I have an issue with banning things outright. I don't think it works. Just a personal opinion.
So should we or shouldn't we ban kol korehs?

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #212 on: March 17, 2021, 03:59:56 PM »
So should we or shouldn't we ban kol korehs?

Like everything else in life... moderation.
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Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #213 on: March 17, 2021, 04:03:13 PM »
Like everything else in life... moderation.
That's actually a fascinating skit idea.

"Everything in moderation"
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #214 on: March 17, 2021, 04:30:32 PM »
I think that you would do well keeping this in mind more.
@Lurker you're making very good points. @aygart The hyperbole is a tirutz on TLS not the KK.

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #215 on: March 17, 2021, 04:32:12 PM »
@Lurker you're making very good points. @aygart The hyperbole is a tirutz on TLS not the KK.
TLS needs tirutzim? Just saying TLS answers all questions.
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Offline Randomex

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #216 on: March 17, 2021, 10:00:12 PM »
An obscure ultra-orthodox sect named for the village of their origin (sic), whose archaic shtetl-like traditions have followed them into the modern world.

What's the source? (It's not on Google.)
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #217 on: March 17, 2021, 11:38:15 PM »
What's the source? (It's not on Google.)

The source is written in dark blue in the left sidebar above the stars :P
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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #218 on: March 18, 2021, 01:49:12 AM »
The source is written in dark blue in the left sidebar above the stars :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Lakewood Rabbonim Ban Use and Sale of Marijuana and Related Products
« Reply #219 on: March 18, 2021, 09:28:47 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic

I know what sic means, I used it because Lubavitch isn’t technically Chabad’s village of origin, though that’s typically how things are for many (most?) Chassidim groups.
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