Author Topic: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything  (Read 298796 times)

Offline dirah

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2740 on: May 17, 2023, 07:39:51 PM »
BTW, I think the מציאות of space travel is supportive of R' Kasher's shitta.

Without knowing exactly what you mean, that is a common pitfall with how to approach this kind of Shaalah. Many take the approach of aligning what “makes sense according to the metzius”, which is just a way of referring to the way our minds have been conditioned to view things because of our ongoing exposure to a certain model or reality, and then to ram it onto a different model or reality. It’s the classical case of drawing a target around the arrow.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2741 on: May 17, 2023, 08:18:05 PM »
Without knowing exactly what you mean,

Let's put aside for a moment the existence of "days" in space (which is disconnected from any geographical line on earth), what would be the Halacha for someone that will stay on the International Space Station, or on a hypothetical colony on the moon? Would it have nothing to do with the count of days in the place he DEPARTED from? Is there any alternative?

What are the rulings for someone that spends time in the Arctic or Antarctic circle (or better yet, at the north or south poll)?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 08:22:19 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2742 on: May 17, 2023, 08:20:41 PM »
Let's put aside for a moment the existence of "days" in space (which is disconnected from any geographical line on earth), what would be the Halacha for someone that will stay on the International Space Station, or on a hypothetical colony on the moon? Would it have nothing to do with the count of days in the place he DEPARTED from? Is there any alternative?
Don't need to go that far. There was a possibility on the Antartica cruise that we'd make it to a place where there was no shkia. There was also a possibility that we'd make it to a place where there was a shkia for everyone besides for the lubavitchers.

We walked through all these scenarios and had lively rabinic debate, with invaluable input and help from @dirah
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2743 on: May 17, 2023, 08:33:22 PM »
There was also a possibility that we'd make it to a place where there was a shkia for everyone besides for the lubavitchers.

I lost you there. Could you please elaborate? (is not capitalizing Lubavitchers on purpose?)
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Offline Dan

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2744 on: May 17, 2023, 08:37:14 PM »
I lost you there. Could you please elaborate? (is not capitalizing Lubavitchers on purpose?)
If it were capitalized you'd probably ask me to define them ;)

Some of it was discussed here by @dirah, though the deliberations went much deeper and more passionate than this. Rabbi Feigelstock felt we should not go, though others including Rabbi Chaikin pushed back against his rationale.

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/
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Offline dirah

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2745 on: May 17, 2023, 08:41:05 PM »
Let's put aside for a moment the existence of "days" in space (which is disconnected from any geographical line on earth), what would be the Halacha for someone that will stay on the International Space Station, or on a hypothetical colony on the moon? Would it have nothing to do with the count of days in the place he DEPARTED from? Is there any alternative?

There are two separate realities involved with space travel:

The first is when one is in the lower atmosphere, and thus “within” the reality where day/night and dates are established by sun’s movement and position vis-à-vis Earth.
The second is when one is in outer space and thus “outside” that reality.

It’s a valid (and AFAIK, an open) question where exactly to draw that line. Many Poskim weighed in on it in association with Astronaut Ramon’s tragic mission on Columbia.

With regards to the first reality, I presume you are referring to multiple orbits around the world in a 24-hour period, (you don’t need spaceflight for that, it can be achieved in regular plane flight closer to the Poles,) which some might thing could bring Shavuos many days earlier. However, that has already been amply addressed in a correspondence between the Rebbe and Rabbi Schochet. The gist of it is that crossing the Dateline is not devoid of geography, and when you are “within” the world, you can’t create a “personal reality” that doesn’t exist anywhere in the world. Or said differently: There are only two days/dates in the world at any given time, and the only question is which one you are personally aligned with.
Additionally, the fact that many Zmanim-related Shaalos are created for one who moves quickly through timezones (such as on the ISS if we assume that its within the first reality) is no inherent license for “making up something that works”.

With regards to the second reality, how it is addressed is not necessarily going to have any influence on the first reality, as they are two different situations.


What are the rulings for someone that spends time in the Arctic or Antarctic circle (or better yet, at the north or south poll)?
That has been discussed here before.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 08:46:34 PM by dirah »

Offline Dan

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2746 on: May 17, 2023, 08:49:58 PM »
If it were capitalized you'd probably ask me to define them ;)

Some of it was discussed here by @dirah, though the deliberations went much deeper and more passionate than this. Rabbi Feigelstock felt we should not go, though others including Rabbi Chaikin pushed back against his rationale.

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/

Short little excerpt:






In the end, the Alter Rebbe found a way to make this long discussion moot by diverting our boat to a place where we could print a Tanya for the first time and avoid having any shaylas according to his shita in shkia. ;D
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Offline koplonko

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2747 on: May 17, 2023, 09:30:52 PM »
I understand. But has any explanation been given?
IIRC Rabbi yossi paltiel has his own personal idea (hergesh), based on a sicha of the Rebbe, that a leap year is inconsistent in the size of the shiurim division, because a leap year represents the avoda of a baal teshuva.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2748 on: May 17, 2023, 09:47:55 PM »
There are two separate realities involved with space travel:

The first is when one is in the lower atmosphere, and thus “within” the reality where day/night and dates are established by sun’s movement and position vis-à-vis Earth.
The second is when one is in outer space and thus “outside” that reality.

It’s a valid (and AFAIK, an open) question where exactly to draw that line. Many Poskim weighed in on it in association with Astronaut Ramon’s tragic mission on Columbia.

With regards to the first reality, I presume you are referring to multiple orbits around the world in a 24-hour period, (you don’t need spaceflight for that, it can be achieved in regular plane flight closer to the Poles,) which some might thing could bring Shavuos many days earlier. However, that has already been amply addressed in a correspondence between the Rebbe and Rabbi Schochet. The gist of it is that crossing the Dateline is not devoid of geography, and when you are “within” the world, you can’t create a “personal reality” that doesn’t exist anywhere in the world. Or said differently: There are only two days/dates in the world at any given time, and the only question is which one you are personally aligned with.
Additionally, the fact that many Zmanim-related Shaalos are created for one who moves quickly through timezones (such as on the ISS if we assume that its within the first reality) is no inherent license for “making up something that works”.

With regards to the second reality, how it is addressed is not necessarily going to have any influence on the first reality, as they are two different situations.

That has been discussed here before.

My bad. I didn't properly make the distinction (wasn't thinking about particulars of the ISS). I was thinking only about the second reality.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2749 on: May 17, 2023, 10:04:39 PM »
If it were capitalized you'd probably ask me to define them ;)

Some of it was discussed here by @dirah, though the deliberations went much deeper and more passionate than this. Rabbi Feigelstock felt we should not go, though others including Rabbi Chaikin pushed back against his rationale.

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/

The bottom line seems to be
Quote
What was the practical conclusion?

Well, the cruise ship ultimately remained north of 65°, and everyone lived happily ever after.

Or in other words, the best way (isn't happiness always best) is to avoid the שאלה altogether.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Dan

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2750 on: May 17, 2023, 10:14:06 PM »
The bottom line seems to be
Or in other words, the best way (isn't happiness always best) is to avoid the שאלה altogether.
Sure, but had it not been for the diversion, that would have been out of our hands.





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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2751 on: May 17, 2023, 10:44:32 PM »



I'm not sure why he equates polar flights with this. While those might be an issue on Friday, am I mistaken to understand that when in doubt (about what day it is) you go by point of departure until you land?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ~King Lake~

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2752 on: May 23, 2023, 05:10:16 PM »
Is there a place from where I could buy a verified dollar that the Rebbi handed out?
And how much should I expect to pay?
I’m in shape, round is a shape…

Offline yelped

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2753 on: May 23, 2023, 05:26:35 PM »
Is there a place from where I could buy a verified dollar that the Rebbi handed out?
And how much should I expect to pay?
A ton of people have one. And while I would not sell one that I received, the Rebbe was not particular with who he gave them out to so I'm sure there are random people who have them.

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2754 on: May 23, 2023, 07:40:15 PM »
A ton of people have one. And while I would not sell one that I received, the Rebbe was not particular with who he gave them out to so I'm sure there are random people who have them.
What’s the average price?
$500-$1k? $1-2k?
I’m in shape, round is a shape…

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2755 on: May 23, 2023, 07:49:54 PM »
What’s the average price?
$500-$1k? $1-2k?

I don't know anyone that would sell any. More likely to have them raffled or auctioned for a cause.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 10:22:15 PM by ExGingi »
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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2756 on: May 23, 2023, 08:30:49 PM »
What’s the average price?
$500-$1k? $1-2k?
I know recently sold for $5k for a raffle for a cause etc...
Shloffen Shloft Zich

Online Yo ssi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2757 on: May 23, 2023, 08:48:42 PM »
More likely to have them raffled for a cause.

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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2758 on: May 23, 2023, 08:49:07 PM »
What’s the average price?
$500-$1k? $1-2k?

Commit to learn Rambam and text RAMBAM to 21000 now to enter into raffle held tonight.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Ask a Lubavitcher Anything
« Reply #2759 on: May 23, 2023, 08:50:58 PM »
Commit to learn Rambam and text RAMBAM to 21000 now to enter into raffle held tonight.

Reminds me of the story Berel Weiss said about his yechidus with the Rebbe (I believe I have posted on DDF a link) where the Rebbe asked him וואס וועסטו מיר געבן?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan